The Voynich Ninja

Full Version: Getting close to a source for f85r2
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
(13-01-2025, 06:36 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(13-01-2025, 05:58 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The yellow liquid is aurum potabile, obviously. Big Grin
Of course, who would question that ? Smile

Well, the guy does look smug. He's not looking at the bottle, he's holding it in triumph.

The 4 ages are a cycle only for alchemists. Wink

Adepts:
1 2
4 3

Vulgum pecus:
1 2
3 4 -> the end
(13-01-2025, 05:58 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The sun in the center is the symbol of gold.

The enclosure with 4 jets: the fountain of youth maybe?

Funny you should mention this stuff.. I was looking at this last night in relation to water + sun/moon (gold/silver)
Page 17 (also 7 and 18) has cipher text at the top, the alphabet for which is on page 34


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: N6: Putrefaction Rebis - a winged hermaphrodite, with a male head on its right and a female head on its left holds a coiled snake in the right hand and a cup containing three snakes in the left; it stands on a golden stone and a silver stone from which flow waters the feed the sun and moon respectively; a beast at the foot of the page drinks the waters.


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: N8: "Solvirt die Corper zu Wasser" - in the centre a queen above a king; to the left four women bathe in a 'moon' fountain, to the right four men bathe in a 'sun' fountain.

We get an elongated pointy finger man in the sun fountain as a bonus
What's up with this one? (late MS)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The one written in red:
"Wer nit gan kundt, der ward gan."
“He who could not walk, could walk”
Night of the Bible and miracles. Loosely translated.
He who cannot walk will be able to walk.

Below from the tenth sign.
Feet and pain...... the story of the miracle.
(13-01-2025, 09:17 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What's up with this one? (late MS)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

He's in a hurry Smile


Bummer, Aga was quicker.
(13-01-2025, 06:36 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(13-01-2025, 05:58 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The yellow liquid is aurum potabile, obviously. Big Grin
Of course, who would question that ? Smile

Everything shall be questioned. Rolleyes

Was aurum potabile a 'thing' in the early 15th century?
Honest question. I do not know.
(14-01-2025, 01:27 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Was aurum potabile a 'thing' in the early 15th century?
Honest question. I do not know.

Me neither. I checked a few of the usual suspects. Many manuscripts are not precisely dated so I don't have a definitive answer.

For example:

- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. [ca. 1400 - 1499], p. 106, a text attributed to (Pseudo-)Raymund Lull: "Respice aurum potabile quod est maximum secretum in medicinis natura..."

- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (15th century) f. 123: Les vertuz et proprietez de aurum potabile et la maniere comment on le fait.

---

De vita philosophorum (a.k.a. Liber lapidis vitae philosophorum) is a compilation of various texts about potable gold and prolonging life by Pseudo-Arnaldus de Villanova (also ascribed to Raymund Lull).

Quote:Le De vita philosophorum [29] est une compilation de textes divers sur l’or potable (dont un extrait du De vinis d’Arnaud de Villeneuve) et la prolongation de la vie.

29. A. CALVET , « Le De vita philosophorum du pseudo-Arnaud de Villeneuve, texte du manuscrit de Paris, BnF ms. latin 7817 », Chrysopœia, 4, 1990-1991, p. 35-7
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is dated 1469. The chapter tilted "De compositione solis potabilis seu de auro potabili" is on f. 54r.

The text exists in other manuscripts. This one is dated 14th century in the Thorndike-Kibre Catalogue of Incipits: BAV Reg.lat.198 ff. 181-189v.:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(But I didn't find the chapter about aurum potabile in it, not sure if it is included.)

---

3 other 15th century texts that certainly mention "aurum potabile":

Guy de Montanor's Scala philosophorum is not well dated but probably early 15th c. or even earlier, nobody knows. "Et tunc habeatur aurum potabile verissimum balsamum Philosophorum efficacissimum, quod est preciosissimum Dei donum."
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

This sentence may have been the inspiration for the title of the Preciosissimum donum Dei. Here, aurum potabile is the Elixir. The text itself in some manuscripts of the 16th century (like MS Ferguson 148) claims that it was written by George Aurach de Argentina in 1475. There is a manuscript dated 1485 (Mscr.Dresd.N.101) so the date is plausible.

George Ripley's Liber duodecim portarum was also written in the 1470s: 1471 according to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

---

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it is claimed that "Alchemists like Michael Scot, Roger Bacon, and Arnaud de Villeneuve had already written about “Aurum potabile” and how to obtain it already in the thirteenth century". The referenced You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (that lists the sources, presumably) is behind a paywall.
[Image: m87.146ra.jpg]

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Even if there is an unusual depiction of a long rosary and eventually the three loops formed after twisting the rosary symbolize the three Mysteries (Glorious, Joyful and Sorrowful), the question is why no beads whatsoever are drawn in the image which could be easily done.
I must correct what I wrote in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
(11-01-2025, 09:26 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(B) Berlin, germ. fol. 1191 (Strasbourg 1460 ca). Most illustrations in rectangular frames with titles in banners. "Winter" as old woman with staff and rosary; the other three seasons/ages were not illustrated. Physician with desk and book.
It's not that the other three seasons/ages were not illustrated: the corresponding pages,  verses 1829-1974, were lost (as several other pages, see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. p.51). The most likely scenario is that the three illustrations were there and are now lost.



Making reference to the Stemma from 'Das "Regimen" Heinrich Laufenbergs: textologische Untersuchung und Edition' by Heinz H. Menge (1976), I compared the images pointed out by Koen. Of course, it would be interesting to examine more images between the different copies of Laufenberg's Regimen, but I think this small set already gives some hints. As always, it is possible I misunderstood something or made errors along the way.

[attachment=9792]

With respect to the images included below (top to bottom):

Z You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: several pages are missing, but Spring and Summer were preserved at the start of the manuscript. The illustrations are quite different from the others (though compatible with the descriptions in the text). The only common trait I can see with the other manuscripts is that headgear of the left figure in Spring, which is somehow similar to that of Augsburg's Spring. The text for Autumn and Winter is missing and the two images are lost. The text about the elements and the complexions is partly preserved: it is not clear if the physician illustration was lost or was never there.

B You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: the three images are now consecutive in the manuscript, but a few pages are missing between the first image and the old woman for Winter. Likely, illustrations for Spring, Summer and Autumn were lost. The image in the left column is the initial illustration for chapter 4 (which includes images for the seasons/ages and the physician): "Here begins the fourth part of this book, and it speaks of the four parts of the year, the four elements, and also the four temperaments."

A You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: between the first (Spring) and second (Autumn) illustration there is another illustration of a woman holding two flowers corresponding to Summer. The three seasons in the image below are Spring, Autumn and Winter.

K You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the manuscript that Koen linked in Post #1) has a Winter image between the third and fourth image (an old woman with two staffs). The three seasons in the image below are Spring, Summer and Autumn.

Voynich illustrations are presented counter-clockwise from the top of the diagram.

The first column in the image below is included for reference. In two of the four sources, there's a pointing figure at the start or immediately before the seasons/ages sequence; but that gesture is very common in medieval illustrations. I will focus on the other three columns, corresponding to the images pointed out by Koen in post #1. 
We only have two complete sources for the relevant illustrations of Laufenberg's Regimen: Karlsruhe and Augsburg.

[attachment=9808]

The three main illustrated sources Karlsruhe, Berlin and Augsburg appear not to depend on each other. They are of course related: they all share the old woman with staff and rosary, but there are parallel traits between couples of sources that do not appear in the third copy.

[attachment=9800]

Karlsruhe shares with Augsburg images of women with flowers to represent the other seasons. The corresponding images are lost from Berlin, so we don't know if this trait was shared or not. But the two sources differ for the physician.

Augsburg and Berlin share the same illustration for the physician: facing left, with the container kept at eye level, sitting in front of an open book. The Karlsruhe figure is standing, faces right, holds the container from its neck, and there is no book. A and B also share using the old woman with rosary for Winter (rather than Autumn, as in Karlsruhe). The Munich ms mentions a fire for the Winter illustration: this suggests a parallel with Augsburg. Berlin has no fire, but a landscape with leafless trees. The posture of the woman with rosary also differs between A and B (see next point).

Karlsruhe shares with Berlin a closer version of the old woman illustration: leaning forward, rosary kept in front of the body, no fireplace. In the Augsburg version the woman is erect and there is a fire.

Overall, the situation appears to be consistent with Menge's stemma, where none of the 7 sources he considers descends from any of the others.

I would speculate that the features that appear in at least two sources could have appeared in the original "alpha" source. I highlighted those features in yellow in the table above. The presence of a fire for Winter is dubious, since it appears in two sources (Augsburg and the textual description in Munich Cgm 377) and is absent from other two sources (Karlsruhe and Berlin). Anyway, fire being shared between Munich's winter and Augsburg's woman-with-rosary winter could be another hing for the figure originally corresponding to Winter (rather than Autumn, as in Karlsruhe only).
Another exception could be the old woman being hunched or leaning forward that, being shared between Karlsruhe and Berlin, might be a feature of the "beta" version. The physician in "beta" must have been similar to that in Berlin (since it is shared with Augsburg): the Karlsruhe illustrator must have decided to modify that image for some reason. The content of the container, the staff and the rosary are painted yellow in the Berlin and Karlsruhe manuscripts (though for K the container is partially obscured by a stain).

About the Voynich illustrations, they look closer in style to the Karlsruhe manuscript (e.g. huge heads, large flowers and rosary). Also, both manuscripts represent simpler scenes, focusing on the human figures and dropping all details like the dead trees or fireplace for winter, or the physician's desk and book. Of course, the Voynich figures are even simpler, since they must fit in the diagram and in most cases only the upper part of the body was represented. 

The staff, the rosary and the content of the container are painted yellow as in the K and B manuscripts. I would say that all other colours are different?

Costumes apart, the East figure in the Voynich diagram is closer to the Berlin and Augsburg physicians (facing left, container kept above eye-level, hand at the bottom of the container). I would say that Berlin has the best match for the old woman (posture and colour of the attributes). The Augsburg version has average/decent matches for all three figures.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18