The Voynich Ninja

The Voynich Ninja > Voynich Research > Voynich Talk > What if the Voynich Manuscript is Actually Old French (1000-1400)?
Full Version: What if the Voynich Manuscript is Actually Old French (1000-1400)?
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2

nablator

25-07-2024, 01:17 PM
(25-07-2024, 10:40 AM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(24-07-2024, 09:45 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This one looks like the abbreviation for Item in a Latin or French manuscript: every line starts with Item in a table of contents.

In the VM, do we sometimes find a similar glyph at the beginning of a line?

Without the I of Item, yes, of course.

In paragraphs, k at the beginning of a line is much more frequent on the first line of the paragraph.

In the ZL transliteration:
77 ",.P.*<\%>k"
26 ",.P.* +k"

Almost 3:1 in favor of the first line.

joben

25-07-2024, 03:43 PM
(24-07-2024, 06:26 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's a ligature, not exclusive to old French.

Rob: I don't think we have a list like that. I still think it could be handy to have one, with explanations for the layman. (If theorists understood what second order entropy was, they wouldn't have their theory in the first place). This may be something to look into after Voynich day.

This is actually a great idea. I would love to see a simple explanation (as simple as it can possibly get), preferably in video format, that would explain the "Voynichese Fundamentals", and why they have to be taken into account when coming up with a theory.

Bluetoes101

25-07-2024, 06:16 PM
In relation to entropy/second order entropy, the thought is that Voynich text is far to predictable to be any natural language, so it does not matter what sort of substitution cipher you apply, and it doesn't matter what glyphs you say are what, the relationship between the glyphs is the problem.

It's fairly simple to imitate the low entropy. "repetitive monotonous text" below. The problem is that the entropy score of my text will be mostly effected by repeated "and they shall" etc, in Voynich it is more because of things like "yteedy qokeedy qokey otedy okedy". Just from that small segment I could ask you, "o, what's next?" T or K. "d, what's next?" Y and you would be right most the time, for the whole manuscript. Normal languages don't work this way and it doesn't matter if every Y is M or every T is D, it's the same problem. 

To show this specifically, you can type "d" into the Voynichese website, it has 12505 matches "dy" is 6819, so over half the time we have d we have dy. "e"  14319, "ee" 4705.. and that's not to mention how things like this happen (r/m). I think you can probably see some of the greater difficulties waiting down the road. Really the alphabet could be pictures of pandas eating bamboo sticks in different ways, we would more or less still be in the same predicament once we try to read anything.  

"r"

[Image: 5Q5OcPX.png]

"m"

[Image: e8xYPYn.png]

My entropy readings

(h1)Entropy of VM text: 3.937543729875115 bits
(h2)Second-order entropy of VM text: 2.1857858287857033 bits

(h1)Entropy of repetitive monotonous text: 3.7875994022781807 bits
(h2)Second-order entropy of repetitive monotonous text: 2.137288423693957 bits 

This is the score from Nablator's online tool as a second check
Entropy:
h1 = 3.7850894452523725
h2 = 2.136621820872425

I then chose Genesis chapter 3 as a random example for more normal/expected entropy score from meaningful text (numbers, capitals, punctuation removed) 

My entropy readings
Entropy of academic text: 4.130866080990504 bits
Second-order entropy of academic text: 3.120350985384424 bits

Nablator's online tool
Entropy:
h1 = 4.087163666108759
h2 = 3.1046333226371283


AI generated text

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Ruby Novacna

25-07-2024, 08:07 PM
(25-07-2024, 06:16 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  
... Really the alphabet could be pictures of pandas eating bamboo sticks in different ways, we would more or less still be in the same predicament once we try to read anything.  

So, any attempt to understand the text should be stopped, according to you, because it's useless?

Bluetoes101

25-07-2024, 09:50 PM
If you change the the glyphs into any others and put them back, the entropy score is the same. 

I didn't have any secret double meaning
Pages: 1 2
The Voynich Ninja > Voynich Research > Voynich Talk > What if the Voynich Manuscript is Actually Old French (1000-1400)?