(29-12-2022, 06:05 AM)julian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(more difficult) the frequent occurrences of word repetitions. For b) it's hard to explain those if there is a one to one mapping between the plaintext and the ciphered form, right?
I think it helps to look at things through the lens of known historical 15th century ciphers. This is even useful if one only looks at cipher keys that are less similar than the Voynich. In that context repeated words could just be nulls. Alternatively, though less likely, there could be a specific rule for use in the instance of repeated words. Or this could be a long-form number representation e.g. "One One One" being 3 "Ten Ten Ten" being 30. I guess there are various possibilities though the idea of them being nulls fits best in the historical context that I am familiar with.
I guess ciphers don't need to have been deciphered for us to spot their relevance. For example I'd agree that anything involving Roman numerals is automatically interesting. They might explain how there is a certain preferred order to Voynichese glyphs, but also other things like the way Voynichese favors word-final swoops (see here: You are not allowed to view links.
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Anyway, I simply meant to explain what I believe to be the reason why many people are not interested in actively researching historical ciphers. But of course this makes the work of those who
are looking into them all the more important.
(28-12-2022, 09:34 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. nothing innovative comes from out of the blue.
This is a key and fundamentally important point. It is one that I have been repeating for sometime.
When it comes to the source for the ideas behind the Voynich cipher there are a few options:
1) The works of Ramon Llull either directly or mediated through the subsequent works of others. This has been discussed by others so I won't comment on it here. I would just say that it seems intricately very plausible.
2) Diplomatic Ciphers. These were the most advanced ciphers in use at the time from which the Voynich dates. There is clearly plenty more I could say on this point. This is obviously the source that I think exists for the Voynich cipher.
3) Non-diplomatic ciphers. These can display some interesting and intriguing features, but they tend to be much simpler than their diplomatic counterparts.
4) Antiquated ciphers. I don't know this topic well. Though I think the polybius square has been mentioned in this regard.
5) Other ciphers. These could be ciphers derived from accounting techniques or mathematical symbolism or some other sphere of thought. I can't give a good concrete example of these. And naturally the evidence for these is limited or non-existent.
However the idea that a cipher as complex as we see in the Voynich manuscript emerged out of thin air is hard to believe. If it did then I can see the only explanation would be that it was invented by a great genius who was able to make such an intellectual leap out of nowhere. I would be surprised if we weren't well aware of this genius from another context. As we know the likes of Da Vinci is too late. So overall I see this as an unlikely, if attractive, explanation.
(29-12-2022, 02:04 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If it did then I can see the only explanation would be that it was invented by a great genius who was able to make such an intellectual leap out of nowhere. I would be surprised if we weren't well aware of this genius from another context. As we know the likes of Da Vinci is too late. So overall I see this as an unlikely, if attractive, explanation.
Thanks, Mark for the list of possibilities from your view. I don't have any particular additions at this time, but if a different one should come to my attention I will be sharing. I'll also consider a deeper dive in these possibilities and will come back with anything of significance.
I did want to add my thoughts on the idea of a "genius." It is possible, but I think extremely improbable. Although truth can be stranger than fiction, over time I have come to discard anything in explaining the Voynich that feels like it comes from a novel.
And a genius (likely a misfit shut up in a castle tower, right? with the five scribes hired by his noble family to keep him (or her, I suppose) busy? sitting somewhere in misty central Europe?) is just that -- quite fictional. Frankly, I find the medieval hoax idea with no content more compelling than that, although it moves us away from a functional cipher which is quite in keeping with the time's psychological view of how written secrets were "protected" and thus a strong counter to that position.
Time and time again strange images in medieval work have had, after some intense Googling, revealed concrete explanations. I think the text will fall to a similar explanation -- it's just harder -- in part because manuscripts with pretty (or any) illustrations are scanned in first and because less study has been done on unusual texts than unusual images. It is so much easier for a scholar to note "Geheimschrift" (secret writing) in a catalog and then just move on rather than actually figure out what was done.
I'm going to continue looking.
(29-12-2022, 03:17 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have come to discard anything in explaining the Voynich that feels like it comes from a novel.
Yes, I tend to go with what seems like the most prosaic theory that fits the facts that we have. I believe that most of the time reality is dull compared with the flights of fancy that we see in fiction. Clearly we have one overriding aspect of the manuscript that is not prosaic namely its writing, so we are stuck trying to make sense of it in an otherwise prosaic context.
(29-12-2022, 02:04 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However the idea that a cipher as complex as we see in the Voynich manuscript emerged out of thin air is hard to believe. If it did then I can see the only explanation would be that it was invented by a great genius who was able to make such an intellectual leap out of nowhere.
Or we are seeing emergent behavior, not necessarily intended, from simple rules, easy to apply on the fly, without rewriting, code book, or maths.
(29-12-2022, 05:02 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (29-12-2022, 02:04 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However the idea that a cipher as complex as we see in the Voynich manuscript emerged out of thin air is hard to believe. If it did then I can see the only explanation would be that it was invented by a great genius who was able to make such an intellectual leap out of nowhere.
Or we are seeing emergent behavior, not necessarily intended, from simple rules, easy to apply on the fly, without rewriting, code book, or maths.
It is an intriguing notion, but can you give a practical example or parallel to what you are referring? Otherwise it seems like an imprecise theoretical idea. And why would this phenomenon emerge only once with the Voynich and not independently in other instances?
(29-12-2022, 06:18 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is an intriguing notion, but can you give a practical example or parallel to what you are referring? Otherwise it seems like an imprecise theoretical idea.
My anti-Polybius cipher, maybe as part of a board game.
Quote:And why would this phenomenon emerge only once with the Voynich and not independently in other instances?
There was never a need to give the encipherer/scribe enough liberty to evolve various quirky non-random behaviors. The VM was done for fun, not necessity.
P.S.: Polygraphia III: "The cipher that pretends to be an artificial language" (Jürgen Hermes) could have been used in a creative way by selecting between the many alternatives for each pseudo-word to (for example) simulate grammar or maximize similarity.
(29-12-2022, 08:39 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (29-12-2022, 06:18 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is an intriguing notion, but can you give a practical example or parallel to what you are referring? Otherwise it seems like an imprecise theoretical idea.
My anti-Polybius cipher, maybe as part of a board game.
Quote:And why would this phenomenon emerge only once with the Voynich and not independently in other instances?
There was never a need to give the encipherer/scribe enough liberty to evolve various quirky non-random behaviors. The VM was done for fun, not necessity.
P.S.: Polygraphia III: "The cipher that pretends to be an artificial language" (Jürgen Hermes) could have been used in a creative way by selecting between the many alternatives for each pseudo-word to (for example) simulate grammar or maximize similarity.
I don't know your anti-polybius theory, but is that based on knowledge of the polysius square? If so then it does have a source.
From my recollection Jurgen Hermes talks about Trithemius, although obviously as he is aware Trithemius post-dates the Voynich by some time.
Generally innovations have a historical context and historical influences. It is very unusual for things to emerge seemingly independently from history.
(29-12-2022, 10:01 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know your anti-polybius theory, but is that based on knowledge of the polysius square? If so then it does have a source.
Not really, it is simple enough to have been invented independently. It has in common with the Polybius square that the ciphertext is a stream of alternated 2D coordinates xyxyxy... and the key is a square table. But instead of picking the cleartext letters at each (x, y) cell, it's the opposite, (therefore anti) they are picked
between two vertices of the zigzag path defined by the stream of coordinates, leaving a lot of freedom when the original Polybius square cipher has none. I described it shortly here: You are not allowed to view links.
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With multiple possible paths (= vords), there is sometimes no need to distinguish between
r-s, o-a, y-q.