30-06-2022, 04:27 PM
Thank you, Koen! I should leave this discussion to people with a better knowledge of English 
01-07-2022, 08:19 AM
01-07-2022, 08:41 AM
He said that what you wrote isn't a sentence, and he was completely correct. I had to improvise and add punctuation to make it somewhat grammatical.
01-07-2022, 09:29 AM
(30-06-2022, 10:02 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'd say that at least the "them" is ungrammatical
(30-06-2022, 04:10 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This would be called a "marked" word orderI just wanted to show you that a correct translation, in its first stage, can seem difficult to understand.
This is a sentence from Herodotus, which I found in the dictionary, which I had consulted following Stephen Carlson's comment.
The commentary said that if our text was ancient Greek, it should have a particular syntax. I was hoping, therefore, that among the forum members someone would recognise the personal pronoun in the second place of the sentence :
kaí spheas hōs oudeìs ekálee ektrépontai ep’ Athēnéōn
I had removed the word Athens so as not to point directly to ancient Greek.
The 1st step of the translation, word by word, gives :
and them as no one called they turn to Athens
The final translation, with the syntax of modern English
‘And since no one invited them, they turned toward Athens’ (Hdt. 6.34.2)
In conclusion, I believe that not only the "translators" but also the "commentators" of a translation must constantly improve their knowledge.
01-07-2022, 10:42 AM
In this case Marco was correct: what you gave us was not a sentence, since you had omitted essential parts. It's like if you give me a cow's tail and ask "is this a cow?", I would have to say "no".
But there is a much bigger problem: what is grammatical in Greek, cannot be turned into English word by word and be grammatical as wel. Each language has its own rules for what is grammatical, hence the final sentence in English looks completely different.
And all of this is beside the point. If you think Voynichese is Greek, the true question is whether the Greek you produce is grammatical in Greek. The English translation of this Greek is irrelevant for the grammaticality question.
In summary, you gave us a bad English translation of an incomplete Greek sentence and asked if it was grammatical - there is no way for us to know. I think the bottom line is that if you want to be a translator, you first need to learn the language you are translating from (or be a native speaker).
But there is a much bigger problem: what is grammatical in Greek, cannot be turned into English word by word and be grammatical as wel. Each language has its own rules for what is grammatical, hence the final sentence in English looks completely different.
And all of this is beside the point. If you think Voynichese is Greek, the true question is whether the Greek you produce is grammatical in Greek. The English translation of this Greek is irrelevant for the grammaticality question.
In summary, you gave us a bad English translation of an incomplete Greek sentence and asked if it was grammatical - there is no way for us to know. I think the bottom line is that if you want to be a translator, you first need to learn the language you are translating from (or be a native speaker).
02-07-2022, 10:54 AM
(01-07-2022, 10:42 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....you had omitted essential parts...Koen, this sentence had its essential parts; its verb and its subject. It is true that I would have done better to replace Athens with Paris or London instead of the ellipsis.
The question that concerns me is precisely how to define the essential parts in the paragraphs of our manuscript?
(01-07-2022, 10:42 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.there is a much bigger problem: what is grammatical in Greek, cannot be turned into English word by wordOf course. I think it was Marco who once (or several times) suggested that any attempt at translation should be presented in both word-for-word and "smoothed" translations.
(01-07-2022, 10:42 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.if you want to be a translator, you first need to learn the language you are translating from (or be a native speaker).I have some doubts that we have any native speakers of Latin, medieval Greek or other Sanskrit left alive.
But I am not discouraged, I continue to learn, as an amateur, of course, which is why I participate in this forum.
07-02-2023, 08:05 PM
Despite reading more than 800 words of the text, I cannot get a complete sentence or line, partly because of ignorance of what phonetic value to give to certain combinations of glyphs, such as EVA dsh and tch, for example.
In the meantime, I have determined some infinitives of verbs, i.e. words ending in -ain, corresponding to -ειν attic or -ην dorian, as well as present participles ending in -aiin, i.e. -ων.
Unfortunately, in the absence of diacritics in our text, participles becomes homographs with the other conjugated forms of verbs, as well as with the genitive plural of nouns and adjectives, which does not facilitate the task of understanding.
In the meantime, I have determined some infinitives of verbs, i.e. words ending in -ain, corresponding to -ειν attic or -ην dorian, as well as present participles ending in -aiin, i.e. -ων.
Unfortunately, in the absence of diacritics in our text, participles becomes homographs with the other conjugated forms of verbs, as well as with the genitive plural of nouns and adjectives, which does not facilitate the task of understanding.