(03-05-2022, 09:45 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All this does not make grammar absent, on the contrary: they tried to write as well as they could.
Adding in my experience in attempting to translate a multipart medical recipe from cipher to Latin to English. Please note I am working with an academic who has excellent Latin skills and I have lost count of the number of times he has said in response to my challenges to his possible readings based on my baby-steps Latin knowledge of correct forms and documented abbreviations :
"Recipe writers in this time period really didn't care too much about following proper Latin grammar or entirely consistent abbreviations."
I have to keep telling myself, something as basic as consistent spelling was entirely optional. It is a distinct culture clash across the time span and decidedly no fun if the cipher was complex. But on the other hand, I don't let it slide so much as to provide "word salad."
I mean, we ultimately got the meaning of the text by allowing lots of freedom in verb, noun, and abbreviation forms but without (1) the context of "we know this is a recipe so this is likely either an ingredient, a step in the preparation, or an indication" and (2) the use of a "relatively consistent" 1:1 substitution cipher, and (3) the almost certainty the plaintext would be in Latin (which it was), it would have been significantly harder.
And dare I say it, maybe even impossible? But, that being said, I haven't given up hope on figuring out the pattern(s) of Voynichese yet.
There are different definitions of grammar at play here. One is spelling: this was variable in medieval texts. Two is "making mistakes", as is expected when the author does not master Latin. Three is "Voynich translator word salad propelled by Google Translate".
I might add to tavie's excellent reply that I remain deeply convinced of the following: if someone finds and publishes the solution to the VM, we will recognise it. We will know that it has been solved. No full translation will be required, just a methodology that addresses the issues, and a small demonstration. People will recognise it. At Yale, here on the forum, elsewhere, it will be proclaimed that a solution has been found. The language or cultural background doesn't matter, be it Turkic or Semitic or Latin or Greek or German or 19th century English. What matters is that the solution recognises and addresses the issues that make simple substitution impossible. If such a solution is demonstrated to work, I can guarantee that it will be recognised. But so far I have only seen isolated words being selected, or word salads, or creative writing exercises. No solutions.
(03-05-2022, 09:48 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Multiple people have shown how easy it is to build up a lexicon of deciphered Voynichese words for completely different languages.
You are absolutely right, it'is easy to see the words in different languages.
The word, I read in the evening "џуџиња" Macedonian, in the morning I see it "κοκκινος" in Greek.
(03-05-2022, 10:34 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Recipe writers in this time period really didn't care too much about following proper Latin grammar or entirely consistent abbreviations
Thank you, Michelle, this should encourage the translators to redouble their efforts.
Actually, my approach to the VM is different, because I felt that if anything, the grammatical features in the VM can confirm or exclude Slovenian language. I worked by the process of elimination, by examining other languages. What makes it different from Latin? Or from German? Or from Croatian? The first words that I was able to read with EVA alone, could be in any language.
1. developing the transliteration alphabet: The transliteration alphabet could not be based on subjective interpretations of a single pictures. I imagined the researchers before me invested a lot of effort to designate their alphabets, however assumptions that the VM is written in a code, or some other secret writing, discouraged many to look for a simple solution by examining the 15th century manuscripts to look for the basic Latin letters used in the VM.
I examined five different 15th century documents, written in different languages, but in similar style (minims, no capitals, no punctuation) that used similar shapes of letters. I found 13 matches and I could guess the rest to get a 'working alphabet'. I did not bother with the glyphs that occur just a few times, since I was not looking first for the most exotic, but rather for the most simple and most frequently used words .
It is OK to try to interpret art work, because if it is any good, it is open for interpretation, but the alphabet cannot just be invented to fit one's interpretation of the picture.
2. Compiling two master-files:
In order to get the data I needed, I transliterated the VM with my alphabet and put the data in Excel, along with the picture of the individual words.
In the other column, I adjusted the words for sound and spelling changes, or for the way the words were changed or replaced). Since there are no special markings for different vowel pronunciation, I wrote down all possible meanings. Next columns represents the English translation and all other information, such as description from the etymological dictionary, different Slovenian spellings in the medieval sources etc.
The purpose of this exercise was that to be able to sort all the words by alphabet, find the frequency of the same words, and the word families (same roots with different grammatical endings).
Test: do the word families reflect the overall thematical images of the VM. According to my translation, there are many words related to holiness, blessing, flowers, creation, healing, incantations, water, cleansing, penance, blessing with incense, etc.
Do the word families reflect the Slovenian grammatical forms? Even more than I expected.
The labels seem to be the example how the words should be spelled and since there is no other translation except occasional alternative Slovenian word, it can be assumed that the words were intended for the uniform spelling or for teaching how to spell Slovenian words.
Being a native Slovenian, familiar with a dialectal speech, I could recognize in the VM many words and different grammatical suffixes and prefixes. I also recognized various prefixes, such as O- AND PO - (EVA-qo). These two prefixes alone could just as well reflect Latin language, however in combination with different words families and different suffixes, they would be better match to Slovenian language.
Another test is relates to the frequency of the words? Does the EVA-daiin make sence in Slovenian language? Was it one of the most frequently used words? Does it combine with other words, or relate to the words before and after? That is where the string of words DAR DAIIN DAIIN (dar dam dam - gift I give (to take) home), DARY LDY (dary ludi - gifts of people) clearly reflect Slovenian grammar.
Slovenian endings -am, -im, reflects 1. person writing. Would that kind of writing be expected in the VM? It would in prayers, poems, personal reflections.
Another frequent Slovenian verbal ending is -i, - j (EVA y, since Y is no longer used in Slovenian alphabet). The way the verbs were originally formed from nouns, was to add the word DAJ (day) to the noun (similar to English 'take a look'), eventually it was shortened to -dy, and finaly to -y, or -i. This is the Slovenian ending for the 2. person singular for the imperative mood. Would that mood be used in the VM? If the text represents a prayer, recipes, or instructions, these grammatical mood would be appropriate.
There are other clues, like many unwritten semi-vowels that made the script look abjad; frequent use of short words, the use of phrases, etc.
Is the solution replicable?
Because of the complicated Slovenian language, particularly medieval Slovenian, the replication would be very difficult.
I suppose anyone can replicate my transliteration alphabet. I did it myself last year, using Czech, Latin, and German manuscripts, and I obtained the same results. Not all the letters were found in a single manuscript, but all those manuscripts I used for comparison would have been known to my proposed author of the VM.
This time, I found the examples how the letters connected at the top, look like strike-through characters in the VM. In my comparative alphabet, I also show how different Latin letters were used for different sounds in different languages. Slovenian language, being influenced by German, Italian, Croatian, and Hungarian writing conventions, seems to be most challenging.
Replication of words: I found over 100 words in the VM that match exactly letter-by-letter the spelling in Slovenian medieval sources (when transliterated with my alphabet). For this exercise, I used only unambiguous words, that have only one possible transliteration, and one possible translation into Slovenian. This experiment can be replicated, as I had shown on my web page, since it can work from VM to Slovenian and from Slovenian back to the VM. It can be done by non-Slovenian speaker, but not all the words can be translated by Google, however any Slovenian can understand them.
Other words need some adjustment for spelling and phonetic sounds. This can be very challenging, even for the Slovenian speakers, since there are over 40 different dialects in Slovenia. There is very little material available on Slovenian dialectology, particularly for the time before the first Slovenian books were written in the middle of the 16th century.
Because the Slovenian was spoken mainly by peasants, the author had to invent many words (nouns from verbs, or verbs, adjectives, etc. from nouns), using Slovenian grammatical patterns.
To explain the changes implemented over the centuries to standardize Slovenian language and grammar, I am compiling a dictionary of the Slovenian words and phrases (used in the VM) as they were spelled in different books and dictionaries. These are more revealing than the explanations in the etymological dictionary, because they are more specific, and in proper grammatical forms. For example: the same Sanskrit root word can be used in Slovenian language, as well as in Turkish or English. But if you show that the variation of spelling actually existed in Slovenian books, translation could be more believable.
Putting it together: From the instantly recognizable words, I was able to get a general ideas about the content of the VM text, or translate some sentences or paragraphs, but I want to make sure the words work across the entire text and that the translation is semantically, historically and geographically correct. If a translation describes something that did not exist in the 15th century, it can't be correct. It is as simple as that.
The text next to floral images is particularly challenging, because I can sense double meaning of many words and religious imagery from the Bible. Such poems require long explanation. The symbolic writing is also suggested by the alchemical images.
In the mean time, I am also working on historical, political, and religious and artistic background, as well as comparing my ideas with the facts and ideas offered by other researchers.
(03-05-2022, 09:45 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Infinitive forms, eh?
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In printed editions of the Rosarius minor: "Revertere, revertere Hortulane, revertere & augmenta Rosarium meum..."
Many manuscripts had plenty of problems: phonetic spelling, bad grammar, copy errors, misunderstanding of abbreviated words, later more or less fixed (sometimes rewritten when too horrible) in printed editions.
All this does not make grammar absent, on the contrary: they tried to write as well as they could.
Not sure if it is relevant here, but in many languages, infinitives can be used for imperatives.
Dutch for example: "Eten!" says the angry mother to the child who doesn't want to eat his red beans.
They can also be nouns.
This may cause valid grammar to look odd.
@ Ruby
in the 15th century were there dictionaries?
Sure, the Vocabularius ex quo for example or the Catholicon, one of the earliest printed books
(04-05-2022, 07:13 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the Vocabularius ex quo for example or the Catholicon
(04-05-2022, 07:39 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Dictionaries: More Than Mere Words
Thank you very much for the information.
(04-05-2022, 05:28 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This may cause valid grammar to look odd
My takeaway from this discussion is that worries about grammar should not discourage us permanently.
The worries about grammar that are often expressed around VM translations are different though.
If someone were to translate the VM and the grammar wasn't perfect, that would be fine. The problem is this: when a VM theorists are criticized about grammar, it is because the "translators" themselves disregard grammar. I bet that there are several people who have proposed a Voynich Latin solution but don't even know what a case is. This is the problem, not the supposition that the VM or any manuscript may contain grammatical oddities.