The Voynich Ninja

I proposed:

Quote:1) take a known plain text in the language that you are proposing.

2) convert it into Voynich MS writing using your rules

3) demonstrate that this result shows the known properties of the Voynich MS text.

and then Ahmet wrote that Step 2 is meaningless.


Well, if the Voynich MS text is a rendition of some old Turkish language or dialect, then the above procedure is how it was written.

It has to be possible to describe this. This is not solving it for a second time. This is part of the evidence.
If it is not possible to describe this, then the theory cannot be accepted.
In that case, the work is reduced to extracting Turkish-like words from the text.

This is exactly what happened in the case of Newbold's solution. He came up with quite reasonable Latin text. However, the method how this text would have been encoded in the Voynich MS ddid not exist. The decryption step was not reversible.

The encryption / encoding / translation step when the MS was written must exist.
The reverse, namely the decoding or back translation step may or may not exist.

Dear Tentakulus,

When you brought up this same subject before, I indicate you the pages of the dictionary and write that the word you read in the form of TAURUS/TAURUM is a misreading. 
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This word is a star and star group name in Turkish. Moreover, I did not just give this information, I was indicate how this word can be read according to ATA transcription by showing the dictionary page as proof.

The examples you give are based on a transcription with inconsistent phonetic matches. While you read a sign with a certain sound value in a word, you read the same sign with another sound value in another word. That's why you won't be able to go any further with these anagram ascriptions. All of your readings are inaccurate and inconsistent. It will certainly not open a door further.

However, if you want take it to keep in same level as easy and keep rowing on the same road, it's okay.

I've re-copied what the TAURUS chest is below. You are returning to the same topic because you did not read my previous comments carefully or read enough to understand. This vicious circle does not allow you to see the truth. Pay attention and examine what I wrote and the dictionary pages I showed you.

You know that of all the transcription and reading recommendations discussed in this group, and none of the studies conducted around the world, have provided the key to read VM manuscripts.

Thanks.

About the TAURUS issue:

This star name is pronounced SOARU ("sahar-u" for sound value affinity) according to our ATA transcription. 

T / S phonetic value changes issue are common in language exchange (included in Turkish). 
Therefore, this (taurus) must be the word used in the mouth of the author SOARU (TOARU) (again the phonetic value near form of the name taurus and toarus). 

In addition, another possibility is that the SOARU spelling has a sound value close to the word SAHAR-U/SEHER-Ü. 

Here, the -U / -Ü at the end is just the word suffix that points to the object (object pointing suffix). 
The root of the word should be SAHAR-/SEHER-.

SEHER and SABAH are synonymous 
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In the Turkish language, there is both a plant name and a star name, which are referred to as SABAH YILDIZI (SEHER YILDIZI). 
Please see those pages:
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Another synonym of SABAH and SEHER and SAHAR is (ZAHİR) here is the same star name with its sinonim You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

As you can see, we can read the same star name in Turkish by showing the real dictionary pages as proof, without applying a reading method that will not allow you to go further with the anagram or phonetic value. 

Regards

Dear Cvetkakocj,

I'm sorry but I don't see any evidence that the details you mentioned can be reconciled with the VM texts. These are just comments and expectations. 
You must first obtain a complete alphabet transcription.  "Not allow yourself to read different letter signs with same phonetic value" is must. 

In the absence of this, only anagram analogies are left. 
This has remained a path that many scientists have deviated for the last 100 years.

Thanks

@Ahmet
To sum it up for me.
1. no apparent linguistic references in the VM to Turkish.
2. the drawing style does not show any approximation to Ottoman either.
3. one or more travellers with an old Anatolian dialect in the middle of Europe. Quite unlikely.
4. from history: Ottomans are on the verge of Venice. Even if travel was given as the reason, it is possible that they would simply have been hanged as spies (because of the different language). It was just a bad time to travel.
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Even if I try to find a reason for your theory, I just can't understand it.

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[quote="ReneZ" pid='49741' dateline='1648883208']
I proposed:

[quote]1) take a known plain text in the language that you are proposing.

2) convert it into Voynich MS writing using your rules

3) demonstrate that this result shows the known properties of the Voynich MS text.[/quote]


[and then Ahmet wrote that Step 2 is meaningless]


Your "and then Ahmet wrote that Step 2 is meaningless" sentence you marked is not nice. 

For this reason, let me end this answer with the same style, maybe you can empathize with what I said and what I feel after your feedback.

I also perceived that you are far from linguistics in the detail that I explained with linguistic examples for VM texts that it would not work in a conclusive way in the example we examined. 

First we have to identify the dialect then we have to rewrite the same words in their undivided and without abbreviations form. Then we can find a living text of that dialect and compare it with that text (based on no 2). 
It's simply the linguistic way. 

If we do what you say, it won't work. Linguists can make this mistake too. 

My time is precious. For this reason, I first evaluate the proposal using mathematics and logic, then if the proposed work makes sense for the text at hand, then I can do it. 

I guess you didn't read or understand what I wrote. Because I never wrote that "Step 2 is pointless". I wrote this based on certain conditions. 
Ignoring the conditions, of course, the sentence is incomprehensible in the way I expressed it.

I mentioned the special writing style of this manuscript that we examined. With these abbreviations and the spelling that has been manipulated in various ways, I have mentioned through examples that VM texts will cannot offer any overlap with any language in the world in the future (using this method you suggested), including Turkish. However, I took a modern Turkish text and showed some overlaps there.

But if you have proven experience in transcribing and reading unread historical texts, mention them so we can be enlightened by your advanced linguistic knowledge. For example, this is not the first transcription I have made, and I have previously made transcriptions that worked for reading. And I've been doing this for 30 years.

Since we cannot define the dialect for VM Turkish texts, which have a unique and indefinable dialect, we have to call it as TURKİC. When the dialect will defined, of course, with your suggestion (no. 2), can be shown for that dialect too. But we cannot do that at this stage. The reason is because of the special writing style chosen to make the words difficult to read in undefined dialect.

When linguists define the dialect, your suggestion may already show that there is a great deal of overlap. For example, if you look at Uzbek Turkish and Turkey and Kirghiz Turkish, it will be seen that the statistical counts of all the words and letter structures are inconsistent with each other. This does not mean that only one of these languages is Turkish and the others are not Turkish.

If so, let's exemplify the individual topics specifically, or if you consult a mathematician (other than you) she/he will tell you what I mean. May be it is not possible for me to be understood because of my broken English.

Maybe I can summarize this whole long article, which I repeated same thinks differently because my English is bad, in one sentence as follows.

"If we do what you say at this stage without understanding the dialect of the author, and if we do this without correcting the words he/she wrote by shortening and dividing, it means almost like comparing apples and lemon with each other."

May be Rene didn't quite understand the situation despite these simple explanations. But I don't know how can I say to Rene evenly this detail in different level to understand me.

[quote="Aga Tentakulus" pid='49744' dateline='1648889604']


Dear Tentakulus,

Your point about.
1. no apparent linguistic references in the VM to Turkish.
2. the drawing style does not show any approximation to Ottoman either.
3. one or more travellers with an old Anatolian dialect in the middle of Europe. Quite unlikely.
4. from history: Ottomans are on the verge of Venice. Even if travel was given as the reason, it is possible that they would simply have been hanged as spies (because of the different language). It was just a bad time to travel.

So, 

I think it would be wrong to make any comments based on what you wrote about history and linguistics. 
It is probably a kind of expression of information deficiencies and prejudices in every item you write.

Regards

Simply put, my information and knowledge are not compatible with yours.
I will certainly continue to follow your work and see where it goes.

Greetings Aga

Dear Ahmet Ardıç

It is quite difficult to have a debate with you.
You introduce everywehere new polemic themes that have nothing to do with the main theme of this thread, I suggest you to open new threads for them, otherwise there will be an incresing number of sub-debates.

Your behaviour is like a teacher that teaches a lesson to us, your classroom. This is not the case. We are not your students willingly to learn your lesson. We are here to point out the weaknesses of your theory. Your repeated argument that we dont undertand is a very poor one.

The use of your unproved theory on VM to debunk another theory on VM goes against scientific method.

Languages dissapear mainly by conquest and/or cultural assimilation of the speakers, not for phisical extinguish of their speakers.

(30-03-2022, 11:27 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Immediately to all 3
I would never claim that the VM is written in pure Slavic. But the indications suggest that I have to reckon with a certain amount of Slavic.
I have a visible part in German and a kind of Romance. As you can see in the link, all three languages are still in focus. Rhaetian dialects. The coat of arms also confirms this with the battlements and the goat or ibex on a bush or tree. (I haven't checked which one it is).
But it is simply interesting how similar it is to the zodiac. Maybe he thought, I'll just draw our coat of arms and there is no deeper meaning behind it.


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If I now look at a possible Turkish language, it is simply there as a third language. But it has no connection to the VM. No apparent reference.
From that point of view, I have to look at all the other language ideas in the same way. Be it Hebrew, Greek, Czech, Spanish and whatever.

I wrote the following on Nick:
"Hints and simple explanations.
Sometimes it happens that (for example) English-language books also contain Latin texts. But you also see this in French, German, Spanish and even Czech books. They all have something in common. The Latin is similar everywhere and easy to read.
Now I have a Romance text on the VM page. You don't just learn this way of writing, you only learn it where it is spoken.
But I also see German text in the VM. More precisely, text from the southern region. Where do I find Rhaeto-Romanic and German spelling in the same place? That only works south of the Alps.
The whole thing is only confirmed by the dovetails, with two out of three crowns saying the same thing. If I now do the overall picture of all the plants, I'm somewhere between Milan and Trieste."

You can take it as a hint, or not.

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The language on the left is Resian, which is a dialect of Slovenian (and is, therefore, Slavic) spoken in the Resia valley.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Wrote:The Hittite language has nothing to do with the Indo-European languages. It is also an agglutinative language and has some prefixes, but there is absolutely no consistent evidence that it is an Indo-European language. But there is evidence to the contrary.

Excuse me? Hittite is Indo-European - not only are large parts of the vocabulary distinctly Indo-European as are the declension and verb conjugation paradigms, but it even proved right the hypothesis of the laryngeals, as they seem to have been still present in Hittite in some forms.