The Voynich Ninja

Dear Cvetka,

I'm sorry to write this, but there are serious deficiencies and some mistakes in your work, so it will not be possible to establish a linguistic overlap between the languages compared today and in the future.

Linguistics is a construct that is far from the analogies and anagrams we wish to be. Maybe you can be guided by giving examples of reading a few clear sentences from this manuscript to linguists with using about your reading 100 words.

In other words, it is not possible to fill in the blanks by comparing individual words. All questions (grey areas) are expected to be answered structurally and with sentence integrity. Otherwise, a study with linguistic value will not emerge. It is also necessary to present words that match the illustrations with clear phonetic overlaps. If you have the chance to clearly show the words describing them in old dictionaries along with the drawings made here, even these are worthwhile if the other gray areas are answered.

Also, the most successful transcription is the one that allows us to read the most sentences and have the most overlap.

First of all, you do not have a suggestion for the large number of letters of the original alphabet that we examined. In other words, you could not show all the text signs and sound equivalents. You still lack in this regard. How many different alphabet characters do you think there are in this 240 pages VM texts? Start by identifying them first, because you haven't even suggested half of the available characters.

We, on the other hand, have introduced a single method on how to read all the letters in the texts, and this method works for all syllable characters. In other words, there is no gray area that we did not answer in this detail.

Another issue is the comparisons you make in your table "Comperative 15th century Slovenian scripts". Here, your table for the compared scripts overlaps considerably in terms of some Latin characters (which should come as no surprise), but there is no clear overlap for syllabic characters. In these paintings you have made, in a sense, there is an analogy of alphabet-character images for you, but I personally never see same overlaps. In other words, these are works that may vary from person to person, but will not serve to declare net linguistic results.

For this reason, linguistics will never confirm that texts are in Slovene based on what you give in your work. A certain amount of time is allocated for each study, and the person doing that study wishes that the scientific community approves his work. Let's see if the scientific community will approve of your study or ours.

In addition, I must say that European languages and culture were influenced and connected in many areas from Turkish language and culture, which are most Europeans did not even realize. This is Europeans biggest shortcoming, and this is why European linguists produce from ballooning and inconsistent claims like PIE. But history and science correct every wrong one day, and that day is getting closer.

In addition, many words thought to be of Hungarian origin are originally (origin) linked to the Turkish language. In fact, it can be said that the Hungarian language and the Turkish language are structurally from the same group.

We have clearly shown in our book and in the articles we sent to Turcologists that some Runic characters that do not have a Latin alphabet connection are used with the same sound value in old Turkish inscriptions. Here, Turcologist historian and linguist Prof. Dr. We give references to Firudin Celilov's transcription work and texts he read with 1/1 phonetic overlap. (See Prof. Dr. Firudin Celilov's serial books named "Dokuz Bitik")

There can be many things we desire. At the end of the day, academies will soon begin to declare that VM texts has Turkish content. We have no doubt about this because we read texts as if we were reading a newspaper. Moreover, to date, more than 100 linguists have verbally expressed their agreement with the results we have obtained. prof. After our work with Celilov, he informed us in writing that the Turkish language was detected in the content of the manuscript.

Yesterday, I made a special presentation to the vice president of the "Turkish Language Institution", (the state institution for Turkish), and to their two linguists. They were impressed by the presentation and promised us to study the issue with their experts at universities within the institution. This process may take time, but the result will definitely be completed as we expect. Because we read many Turkish words in each (every) sentence of VM's pages. There is no any single sentence that does not contain Turkish words for 240 pages. Although we examine 10% of the work in detail, we clearly show around 700 words and 100 sentences.

We have presented many evidence about the name Voynich and the history and language of this well-known VM in our book.

I have read your work before. But I think you haven't carefully studied our work. Anyway, I don't expect what I wrote on this page to mean anything to many people on this page. But don't be surprised when academies and Turkish language institutions start announcing the results soon. At the moment, we are just at very beginning of the historical developments for VM reality.

Regards,

Dear R. Sale,

Each person may interpret the illustrations drawn in the Voynich manuscript differently, or some of them, as groups, may agree with interpretation of some drawings. Do not forget that for every detail you comment, we have an alternative interpretation. Such interpretation & comments cannot be considered scientific evidence unless give 1/1 matchs. We show the words here in old dictionaries and today's dictionaries, giving clear readings and examples of sentence structure in many sentence in the VM. This is exactly what has scientific value.

We never interpreted the drawings. Moreover, we present our proofs that the author is a Turkish-speaking traveler in Europe. 

In other words, the drawings made by the author do not have to be compatible with Turkish culture. By the way, I can say that the hot springs and pools in Europe are mostly in Turkey and it ranks second in the world. All these drawings of women bathing are somewhat related to this fact. This does not mean that there is no hot springs in Italy. But do not think that there is no hot springs in Turkey too. Just compare the facts. 

I don't know if this analogy will shed light on your way of looking and thinking about the VM drawings. Interpretation is interpretation everywhere, but it is possible to solve this problem not with interpretations, but with scientific evidences only.

Thanks.

Dear Cvetka,

Now let me show you a clear mistake so that the detail I mentioned is clear to everyone on this page. 

Here I show you the visuals of 3 separate words in your chart and how you read them. 

[attachment=6345]

The letters O, A, R that you show in your table are exactly the same in our ATA transcription with the same phonetic values. 

These are already familiar characters of the Latin alphabet. But for all three words, the ones you read with the same SV phonetic equivalent (syllable signs, according to us) are different from each other in terms of their linear structures/organizations based on their drawing style. 

Thats why it is not possible for them to have the same sound value. 

Another issue is how you are reading C, S, V alphabet characters with a certain phonetic value. When these sounds are side by side to the phonetic signs SV and CV are formed, they have no similarity with the drawing of the letters S, V, C. For this reason, there is an inconsistency between them as a drawing, even if we assume that you have read them as syllabic characters. Just for this reason, there is no C to CV overlap based on their drawings.

This and many similar mistakes are clearly evident in your work, and for this reason, your work will never have an academic value in the world of transcription. 

So don't let it upset you. Still, as a study, it was a good try, but like many other claims, it's not a scientifically important study as I know.


Kind regards,

Immediately to all 3
I would never claim that the VM is written in pure Slavic. But the indications suggest that I have to reckon with a certain amount of Slavic.
I have a visible part in German and a kind of Romance. As you can see in the link, all three languages are still in focus. Rhaetian dialects. The coat of arms also confirms this with the battlements and the goat or ibex on a bush or tree. (I haven't checked which one it is).
But it is simply interesting how similar it is to the zodiac. Maybe he thought, I'll just draw our coat of arms and there is no deeper meaning behind it.

[attachment=6346]
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If I now look at a possible Turkish language, it is simply there as a third language. But it has no connection to the VM. No apparent reference.
From that point of view, I have to look at all the other language ideas in the same way. Be it Hebrew, Greek, Czech, Spanish and whatever.

I wrote the following on Nick:
"Hints and simple explanations.
Sometimes it happens that (for example) English-language books also contain Latin texts. But you also see this in French, German, Spanish and even Czech books. They all have something in common. The Latin is similar everywhere and easy to read.
Now I have a Romance text on the VM page. You don't just learn this way of writing, you only learn it where it is spoken.
But I also see German text in the VM. More precisely, text from the southern region. Where do I find Rhaeto-Romanic and German spelling in the same place? That only works south of the Alps.
The whole thing is only confirmed by the dovetails, with two out of three crowns saying the same thing. If I now do the overall picture of all the plants, I'm somewhere between Milan and Trieste."

You can take it as a hint, or not.

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Dear Tentakulus,

You, we and all linguists know that languages living in neighboring geographies have exchanged words from each other for thousands of years. Even though they are members of different language groups, word exchange has been experienced in all directions throughout history. For this reason, I am sure that you will not be surprised to see a Turkish word in these languages, just as I am not surprised when I see a Greek or Italian word in the Turkish language.

At this point, I think that there are linguistic details that we can learn from all researchers from different languages on this platform, for many words that are used together with Turkish words in Turkish sentence structure in VM texts. Therefore, if anyone here tries to read words in European languages with ATA transcription, may be we can probably match more sentences clearly. Because the author was probably a multilingual person, we think that why she/he was able to travel in Europe freely.

Thanks

What you don't seem to see is that the language convergence came with the media of newspapers, radio, TV, and the naming of new achievements of the 18th-20th centuries.
But you are in the early 15th century. Travelling was quite different then. With luck you had an ox cart.
Maybe it helps to look around in history first.
Your explanations are therefore a bit thin and not acceptable to me.

Happens gladly

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(30-03-2022, 10:07 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it is possible to solve this problem not with interpretations, but with scientific evidences only

A good piece of evidence would be the following:

1) take a known plain text in the language that you are proposing.
2) convert it into Voynich MS writing using your rules
3) demonstrate that this result shows the known properties of the Voynich MS text.

If this works, then your theory should be taken very serious.
If it doesn't work, then you have to be able to explain why, and this will be difficult.

If it is not possible to find such a known plain text, then this is a bad sign.
At least some cognate language should exist.
If that is also not the case, it is a very bad sign. You are postulating the existence of a language, and we can no longer speak about evidence, but only about hypothesis.

It might even be that step 2 does not work, but we can skip that complicated point.

The most important properties of the Voynich MS text are the typical word structure, and the very limited combinations between characters, which can be expressed in a number called 'entropy'.

(31-03-2022, 01:09 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What you don't seem to see is that the language convergence came with the media of newspapers, radio, TV, and the naming of new achievements of the 18th-20th centuries.
But you are in the early 15th century. Travelling was quite different then. With luck you had an ox cart.
Maybe it helps to look around in history first.
Your explanations are therefore a bit thin and not acceptable to me.

Happens gladly

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There is quite a lot of evidence that people did travel widely throughout the Middle Ages, especially during the late Middle Ages and Renaissance. If you read new scholarship (e.g. Geraldine Heng's The Global Middle Ages, Sarah Davis-Secord's Global Medieval Contexts, or Matt Gabriele and David Perry's The Bright Ages), you will see that many of the widespread ideas about the period are not correct. Many women were literate. People traveled widely. Commerce flourished between Europe, Asia, and Africa. etc.

[quote="Aga Tentakulus" pid='49714' dateline='1648685350']
[What you don't seem to see is that the language convergence came with the media of newspapers, radio, TV, and the naming of new achievements of the 18th-20th centuries.
But you are in the early 15th century. Travelling was quite different then. With luck you had an ox cart.]


Dear Tentakulus,

I think differently about the subject you mentioned here.

What is the "new achievement" of the 18th centuries" for average linguist? 

İf this about introducing the concept of PIE in the field of linguistics, I'm afraid I must say that the so-called PIE is a huge balloon and this balloon has been inflated since the 18th century.

Of course, human can't inflate a balloon forever included myself. Then, when someone comes and hits the needle, it is understood that the mass is empty.

In other words, before assuming that the Western history and linguistics teaching overlaps with the facts, I suggest you learn what scientists have written on this subject in the East like linguist and historian Mr. Arif Cengiz Erman.

If you do not do this, of course, it becomes difficult to understand that the created (manufacturing) concept called PIE, which you attribute to linguistics, is an empty claim devoid of scientific evidence. 

Or, an other person may have a perception such as "There are hot springs in Italy. So the women who were drawn while bathing in pools in the book were drawn by an Italian speaking person". 

Human beings have been traveling long distances for thousands of years.

When Erden Eruç aimed to make a complete world tour in a boat, using only muscle power (rowing) and crossing the oceans, he could calculate & estimate using mathematics in how many days he would be able to make this journey. It is now moving towards a new target in the middle of the ocean. 

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Erden Eruç is rowing in the ocean to reach a certain goal. Of course, it wouldn't have been a success without his experience of how this type of trip should be made. He can decide which route to go and reach the result because he knows his job well. 

There are also multiple methods of reading old unreadable texts like VM. We have decided which methods we will use in our work long time ago and we continue in that way.

You cannot explain the Turkish content of an old text whose dialect we cannot define and which contains many abbreviations, with the frequency of use of the letters in the text. In VM, some of the word looking structures that look like two or three words are actually a single word. In this case, the calculating of words structer or frequency of letters will not solve the problem.

In order to read clearly, it is necessary to make an accurate transcription. We have one and it works. The evidence we show is also presented to show that it works. You cannot use the statistical status of the letters for Turkish whose dialect is unknown and deliberately manipulated. However, we have shown examples of the overlapping of word structures.

Thanks

(31-03-2022, 11:35 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You cannot explain the Turkish content of an old text whose dialect we cannot define and which contains many abbreviations, with the frequency of use of the letters in the text. In VM, some of the word looking structures that look like two or three words are actually a single word. In this case, the calculating of words structer or frequency of letters will not solve the problem.

Dear Ahmet Ardıç,
Thanks for showing part of your work.
My perception is that you first assigned letters to charachters. As this didnt work you desomposed some characters into several letters, maybe common groups of 3 letters in turkic words, a base to make it easy to find words. As this didnt work you added abbreviations to fill the gaps. 
There has been attemps with a similar techniquea and none of them worked. Maybe your attemp will be the right one, we will see.