26-11-2020, 11:28 PM
26-11-2020, 11:28 PM
27-11-2020, 08:08 PM
Interesting indeed, Who was this guy? Montaron, Montarose, Montaross?
Clearly this is his heraldic achievement.
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And his supporters are mermaids. They have the mirrors and the combs, and they are doing their hair. And they also have fish tails. So they are not snakes.
A search for 'heraldry mermaid supporters' produces about a dozen images. And pretty much all of them are on the job, They are being supporters - not off combing their hair. None of them are combing their hair and none of them are in tubs. So this is the really unusual point - it's the tubs. It's 1763.
It would seem, if the tubs have any traditional reference, that the Melusine mythology was still active at that point.
Clearly this is his heraldic achievement.
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And his supporters are mermaids. They have the mirrors and the combs, and they are doing their hair. And they also have fish tails. So they are not snakes.
A search for 'heraldry mermaid supporters' produces about a dozen images. And pretty much all of them are on the job, They are being supporters - not off combing their hair. None of them are combing their hair and none of them are in tubs. So this is the really unusual point - it's the tubs. It's 1763.
It would seem, if the tubs have any traditional reference, that the Melusine mythology was still active at that point.
27-11-2020, 08:34 PM
27-11-2020, 09:41 PM
Quote:The Coat of Arms of Warsaw consists of a syrenka ("little mermaid") in a red field. Polish syrenka is cognate with siren, but she is more properly a fresh-water mermaid called “Melusina.” This imagery has been in use since at least the mid-14th century.[1] The syrenka has traditionally held a silver sword although this does not appear on more recent versions.
The following picture shows a Syrena (syren) from the Greek mythology. If you leave out the feet, the resemblance to a (late) Melusine is quite striking.This does not mean that they have to be in the same tradition but it is possible.
[attachment=5002]
Koninklijke Bibliotheek, The Hague, KB, KA 16, Jacob van Maerlant, Der Naturen Bloeme, Flanders, ca. 1350, fol. 109rb
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28-11-2020, 10:55 PM
Those are some big, ugly feet!
Melusine is a dragon. Melusine is a mermaid. Melusine is a siren.
A dragon is not a mermaid or a siren. A mermaid is not a siren of a dragon. A siren is not a dragon or a mermaid.
Mermaids don't have feet.
Dragon:
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Mermaid:
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Siren:
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Also check the various gallery images for each.
Confused??? Best to pick one version of the Melusine myth and stick with it as much as possible. Even so, in the Valois situation, there is the Luxembourg 'mermaid' brought into the environment of the Lusignan 'dragon'.
Melusine is a dragon. Melusine is a mermaid. Melusine is a siren.
A dragon is not a mermaid or a siren. A mermaid is not a siren of a dragon. A siren is not a dragon or a mermaid.
Mermaids don't have feet.
Dragon:
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Mermaid:
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Siren:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Also check the various gallery images for each.
Confused??? Best to pick one version of the Melusine myth and stick with it as much as possible. Even so, in the Valois situation, there is the Luxembourg 'mermaid' brought into the environment of the Lusignan 'dragon'.
29-11-2020, 05:51 PM
Starting to see more Melusine / Anaximander Mileseus mashups.
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I found that linked from here, which is all about tracing lineages of mermaids and such.
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Also
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (ok Anaximander is the name of a unicorn but in terms of coincidence i think it still counts)
So i think i am not that far off course conflating the two ideas of evolution and genealogical origins with regard to these two.
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I found that linked from here, which is all about tracing lineages of mermaids and such.
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Also
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (ok Anaximander is the name of a unicorn but in terms of coincidence i think it still counts)
So i think i am not that far off course conflating the two ideas of evolution and genealogical origins with regard to these two.
29-11-2020, 05:59 PM
(26-11-2020, 11:28 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but it is interesting because it combines stars, crowns, buckets, and melusines, similar to themes in the VMS.
I looked up Ranchin and found a family that lived in Saint-Maurice-d'Ardeche, Ardeche, Auverne-Rhone-Alpes, France.
07-12-2020, 01:08 AM
Another version of the pond scene.
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Universitätsbibliothek Heidelberg, Cod. Pal. germ. 300
Konrad von Megenberg
Das Buch der Natur — Hagenau - Werkstatt Diebold Lauber, um 1442-1448?
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Universitätsbibliothek Heidelberg, Cod. Pal. germ. 300
Konrad von Megenberg
Das Buch der Natur — Hagenau - Werkstatt Diebold Lauber, um 1442-1448?
07-12-2020, 09:34 AM
That's the same manuscript I posted on my Melusina blog. What's interesting about it is that the little lizard-like critter is drawn in a way that is very similar to the pond critter in the VMS (note especially the hind limbs and the bumpy forehead, also the way the tail has been painted over).
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07-12-2020, 10:05 PM
It's an interesting comparison, and given the range of variation for these various 'iconic' versions of Melusine, and the relevant range of her employment as a mythical ancestress, then there is clearly a strong potential for this interpretation. And there is always the possibility of multiple interpretations.
Is Melusine represented only in illustrations where she is named as Melusine in the text? In that case, what is happening here? The first Lauber illustration (#0364) is from a chapter: 'Von den merwundern' or <'monstris marinis'>, sea monsters, with the cute and modest mermaid being given the eagle-eye by some bird with a fish's tail.
The second Lauber illustration (#0390) is from a chapter: 'Von den vischen'. "From the vish" if you can believe GoogleTrans. Then again, they might be vish. I don't see a fish among them. And here again the modest, little, doll-faced mermaid. This is painting in a very different style.
However, she is not there by herself. Taken together with the pond illustrations from Harley 334 and the VMs, this is subject better designated as "a mermaid and her companions". Better than calling it a reference to Melusine, at least presuming Melusine always bathed alone and in private.
That being said, there is still no reason not to tie the two together. Yet the representation of Melusine, particularly in the Luxembourg version, which creates the Valois era, is the one that is most frequently represented more like a typical mermaid. So there is a problematic situation, if it is thought that one needs to be distinguished from the other, rather than being both at the same time.
What distinguishes the potential identification of Melusine in the VMs is the companion animal that represents an ambiguous Golden Fleece. While neither interpretation can be considered indisputable, there is only a limited historical perspective in which both have come together. If that information is represented in the VMs, then the creator of the VMs illustrations must have known and chosen that information. The matter of interpretation then is left to the reader and has left the reader in difficulty.
The presence of a second identification of a potential Golden Fleece (f80v) completes the pairing required in the VMs, (hidden in a myth read backwards), while the image itself, despite its origins, has a clear connection to the state of Burgundy concurrent with the date range of the C-14 tests. The dating of La Sainte Hostie de Dijon (1433) is the same and the location is the 'capitol' of Burgundy. . . though events may be known far and wide over time. Though there may be variations of time and place for VMs creation, the content relies on connections to historical information - and in the VMs some images are paired. The provenance of that information helps to define the historical space as presented.
Is Melusine represented only in illustrations where she is named as Melusine in the text? In that case, what is happening here? The first Lauber illustration (#0364) is from a chapter: 'Von den merwundern' or <'monstris marinis'>, sea monsters, with the cute and modest mermaid being given the eagle-eye by some bird with a fish's tail.
The second Lauber illustration (#0390) is from a chapter: 'Von den vischen'. "From the vish" if you can believe GoogleTrans. Then again, they might be vish. I don't see a fish among them. And here again the modest, little, doll-faced mermaid. This is painting in a very different style.
However, she is not there by herself. Taken together with the pond illustrations from Harley 334 and the VMs, this is subject better designated as "a mermaid and her companions". Better than calling it a reference to Melusine, at least presuming Melusine always bathed alone and in private.
That being said, there is still no reason not to tie the two together. Yet the representation of Melusine, particularly in the Luxembourg version, which creates the Valois era, is the one that is most frequently represented more like a typical mermaid. So there is a problematic situation, if it is thought that one needs to be distinguished from the other, rather than being both at the same time.
What distinguishes the potential identification of Melusine in the VMs is the companion animal that represents an ambiguous Golden Fleece. While neither interpretation can be considered indisputable, there is only a limited historical perspective in which both have come together. If that information is represented in the VMs, then the creator of the VMs illustrations must have known and chosen that information. The matter of interpretation then is left to the reader and has left the reader in difficulty.
The presence of a second identification of a potential Golden Fleece (f80v) completes the pairing required in the VMs, (hidden in a myth read backwards), while the image itself, despite its origins, has a clear connection to the state of Burgundy concurrent with the date range of the C-14 tests. The dating of La Sainte Hostie de Dijon (1433) is the same and the location is the 'capitol' of Burgundy. . . though events may be known far and wide over time. Though there may be variations of time and place for VMs creation, the content relies on connections to historical information - and in the VMs some images are paired. The provenance of that information helps to define the historical space as presented.