17-07-2020, 07:15 AM
17-07-2020, 04:18 PM
I am not sure why Melusine flying around as a dragon links to the nymph in the fish mouth, there is no similar imagery there, except that you have given the possibility of the fish nymph as matching other renditions of Melusine with fishier tails. Seems like a stretch, especially in that the nymph does not have a fish tail at all.
Similarly, the Agnes dea and golden fleece bear no resemblance to each other nor any other connection other than the Duke of Burgundy idea, and as sheep related. But this is only a possibility for the vms creature, to which they are both being linked, which to me more resembles a goat.
In both cases no attempt has been made to pull in the rest of the imagery, as if it is all just nonsensical added background for these possibilities you offer. But they are obviously not the topic of these drawings as a whole, there is only one of each amongst many others of a more cohesive nature having nothing to do with animals of any kind, and not much more in the way of linking to Burgundy that i can see.
Not that i don't think it is possible for there to be such connections, but what would they have been trying to say? There would have had to have been a purpose beyond "i think i will draw a version of something i saw in the duke's library. And then, i will draw another one which has the added benefit of being able to be mistaken for the logo of the order he started."
I found this page, maybe it can help you pull the bits together. The idea of ancestral connections deserve further research.
Much of the scholarly literature on the Mélusine romances has focused on the heroine’s fairy nature, with little attention directed towards the pseudo-historical narrative of the Lusignan sons’ crusading adventures and dynastic expansion into the eastern Mediterranean. This paper examines the place of the Poitevin tale within Burgundian court culture by analysing a selection of literary, historical, and artistic representations of the Lusignan romance. By contextualising the various representations of the legend against the socio-political interests and experiences shared by members of the Burgundian court across the period, this paper highlights how the theme of western engagement with the east consistently informed or shaped individual and/or collective reception of the Mélusine
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Similarly, the Agnes dea and golden fleece bear no resemblance to each other nor any other connection other than the Duke of Burgundy idea, and as sheep related. But this is only a possibility for the vms creature, to which they are both being linked, which to me more resembles a goat.
In both cases no attempt has been made to pull in the rest of the imagery, as if it is all just nonsensical added background for these possibilities you offer. But they are obviously not the topic of these drawings as a whole, there is only one of each amongst many others of a more cohesive nature having nothing to do with animals of any kind, and not much more in the way of linking to Burgundy that i can see.
Not that i don't think it is possible for there to be such connections, but what would they have been trying to say? There would have had to have been a purpose beyond "i think i will draw a version of something i saw in the duke's library. And then, i will draw another one which has the added benefit of being able to be mistaken for the logo of the order he started."
I found this page, maybe it can help you pull the bits together. The idea of ancestral connections deserve further research.
Much of the scholarly literature on the Mélusine romances has focused on the heroine’s fairy nature, with little attention directed towards the pseudo-historical narrative of the Lusignan sons’ crusading adventures and dynastic expansion into the eastern Mediterranean. This paper examines the place of the Poitevin tale within Burgundian court culture by analysing a selection of literary, historical, and artistic representations of the Lusignan romance. By contextualising the various representations of the legend against the socio-political interests and experiences shared by members of the Burgundian court across the period, this paper highlights how the theme of western engagement with the east consistently informed or shaped individual and/or collective reception of the Mélusine
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17-07-2020, 04:37 PM
(17-07-2020, 04:18 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
In both cases no attempt has been made to pull in the rest of the imagery, ...
...
Well, that's not true.
When I proposed the idea of Agnus Dei, I was including the nebuly, the elevated appearance of the "pedestal" and the "droplets" emanating from the bottom, all of which are found in medieval imagery and all of which connect to both Agnus Dei and the VMS critter drawing. The later illustrations of Agnus Dei sometimes drew the lamb dead or lying down or prone in some way, it was not always shown standing with a cross.
R. Sale also noticed these related aspects of the drawing and found a good parallel in a manuscript.
17-07-2020, 05:39 PM
(17-07-2020, 04:37 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(17-07-2020, 04:18 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
In both cases no attempt has been made to pull in the rest of the imagery, ...
...
Well, that's not true.
When I proposed the idea of Agnus Dei, I was including the nebuly, the elevated appearance of the "pedestal" and the "droplets" emanating from the bottom, all of which are found in medieval imagery and all of which connect to both Agnus Dei and the VMS critter drawing. The later illustrations of Agnus Dei sometimes drew the lamb dead or lying down or prone in some way, it was not always shown standing with a cross.
R. Sale also noticed these related aspects of the drawing and found a good parallel in a manuscript.
I meant the rest of the imagery not directly related to the parallel being made. Why are the droplets falling on the ring lady, what is she pointing it at and how does that relate back to the Agnus Dei being there at all, not to mention everything else on the page.
And really, the droplets, i don't think there are any? Near as i can tell they are meant to portray star stuff falling from the sky, or possibly figs (see Revelation 6:12-17) and yet the correlation is with lines that look like rain or grass...
17-07-2020, 10:50 PM
What is the correct representation of Melusine? She is all woman; she is half-and-half; she is a dragon. And don't forget Harley 334 f 57. Whatever that is, that is what the VMs is. What is it?
Is it a generic mermaid? Okay, it's a generic mermaid. What have we learned from the investigation of mermaids that relates to VMs f79v? Nothing.
The possible interpretation as a female version of Jonah and the whale has been suggested.
The image used in the link in Post #12 is much more like a mermaid than others in 15th century illustrations.
The concept of ancestral descent from Melusine is a belief maintained in a number of royal families. The article particularly focuses on the line of Lusignan based on the story of Melusine and Raymond. Does it mention Melusine's connections to the Angevins and Plantagenets?
Jean, Duc de Berry (d.1416) took possession of the Lusignan castle from the English during the Hundred Years War, so there is that connection as seen in the March illustration of Tres Riches Heures.
The article mentions the Duke of Luxembourg as a descendant and of Melusine and then entirely misses the point. The Luxembourg version of the myth is a different version of the myth. It's not Raymond in the [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Luxembourg myth, it's Siegfried.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]See paragraph under 'Legends': You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[/font]
This is the [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Luxembourg legend - and the significance of the [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Luxembourg legend is found in the story of Bonne of Luxembourg.[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]She is the mother of the Valois family lines. She brings ancestral descent from the myth of Siegfried and Melusine directly to the Valois lines.This is what validates the connection between Melusine and the Valois descendants. This establishes a claim, one of several. It does not specify how Melusine is supposed to appear. Representations of Melusine vary, and when it comes to the VMs the variation of appearance can be intentional as seen in the cosmic comparison. The lady-fish image is there. It can either be interpreted according to a mythology that was traditional through much of the 1400s or it's just a generic 'pond scene' with no further significance. The problem is that we don't live in the time that the VMs was made (assuming that it is 'authentic'), so we don't see things from that perspective.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]A similar situation with the VMs critter of f 80v. All knds of speculation, everything from armadillo to Golden Fleece along with several other possibilities not in between. The key, IMO, is the nebuly line. The identification of the nebuly line and the recognition that it can represent a cosmic boundary is a major step in making the identification. What possible critter would be associated with a cosmic boundary? That would be the Agnus Dei. That was where JKP was working, posting a number of images, one of which had the unusual quality of having an uncommon structure where the lamb and the blood are on opposite sides of a cosmic boundary. And also that the cosmic boundary consisted of a vesica piscis constructed from a cloud-band. This is only hinted at in the VMs illustration, but that's just it. The VMs only provides hints. If the reader can't use the hint, the hidden narrative remains closed, heraldic canting sits undiscovered. The particular manuscript with the Agnus Dei (BNF Fr. 13096) was in the library of Philip the Good, and this just clicks with the Golden Fleece, long suggested by others.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]As I see it, Melusine is a strong hint in the tradition of the time. Although strong and not too hard to find, it is not that specific for time or place. The VMs hints for the Agnus Dei have been clearly disguised. It's more difficult to discover and it is also more specific in regard to historical time and place. Combined with the cosmos and the zodiac, this is further confirmation of deception. White Aries is pure deception. There is no denying the possibility of dual interpretation. [/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Tradition is the hidden pathway. Without the depths of tradition (verifiable historical tradition) there is no structure. There is no historical grounding. There is no relating to a known reality. Appearance is unreliable. The VMs has been constructed such that appearance is not reliable and the truth must be found according to religious law. So we are possibly now able to recover certain parts of what would appear to be the VMs creator's innate cultural traditions, and this points to a person or persons familiar with libraries and historical events leading up to those of the mid-1430s, from Paris and Berry and then to Burgundy. The VMs creator has used these disguised elements which combine to establish historical grounding for those who can follow the hidden pathway of tradition[/font]
Is it a generic mermaid? Okay, it's a generic mermaid. What have we learned from the investigation of mermaids that relates to VMs f79v? Nothing.
The possible interpretation as a female version of Jonah and the whale has been suggested.
The image used in the link in Post #12 is much more like a mermaid than others in 15th century illustrations.
The concept of ancestral descent from Melusine is a belief maintained in a number of royal families. The article particularly focuses on the line of Lusignan based on the story of Melusine and Raymond. Does it mention Melusine's connections to the Angevins and Plantagenets?
Jean, Duc de Berry (d.1416) took possession of the Lusignan castle from the English during the Hundred Years War, so there is that connection as seen in the March illustration of Tres Riches Heures.
The article mentions the Duke of Luxembourg as a descendant and of Melusine and then entirely misses the point. The Luxembourg version of the myth is a different version of the myth. It's not Raymond in the [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Luxembourg myth, it's Siegfried.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]See paragraph under 'Legends': You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[/font]
This is the [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Luxembourg legend - and the significance of the [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Luxembourg legend is found in the story of Bonne of Luxembourg.[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]She is the mother of the Valois family lines. She brings ancestral descent from the myth of Siegfried and Melusine directly to the Valois lines.This is what validates the connection between Melusine and the Valois descendants. This establishes a claim, one of several. It does not specify how Melusine is supposed to appear. Representations of Melusine vary, and when it comes to the VMs the variation of appearance can be intentional as seen in the cosmic comparison. The lady-fish image is there. It can either be interpreted according to a mythology that was traditional through much of the 1400s or it's just a generic 'pond scene' with no further significance. The problem is that we don't live in the time that the VMs was made (assuming that it is 'authentic'), so we don't see things from that perspective.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]A similar situation with the VMs critter of f 80v. All knds of speculation, everything from armadillo to Golden Fleece along with several other possibilities not in between. The key, IMO, is the nebuly line. The identification of the nebuly line and the recognition that it can represent a cosmic boundary is a major step in making the identification. What possible critter would be associated with a cosmic boundary? That would be the Agnus Dei. That was where JKP was working, posting a number of images, one of which had the unusual quality of having an uncommon structure where the lamb and the blood are on opposite sides of a cosmic boundary. And also that the cosmic boundary consisted of a vesica piscis constructed from a cloud-band. This is only hinted at in the VMs illustration, but that's just it. The VMs only provides hints. If the reader can't use the hint, the hidden narrative remains closed, heraldic canting sits undiscovered. The particular manuscript with the Agnus Dei (BNF Fr. 13096) was in the library of Philip the Good, and this just clicks with the Golden Fleece, long suggested by others.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]As I see it, Melusine is a strong hint in the tradition of the time. Although strong and not too hard to find, it is not that specific for time or place. The VMs hints for the Agnus Dei have been clearly disguised. It's more difficult to discover and it is also more specific in regard to historical time and place. Combined with the cosmos and the zodiac, this is further confirmation of deception. White Aries is pure deception. There is no denying the possibility of dual interpretation. [/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Tradition is the hidden pathway. Without the depths of tradition (verifiable historical tradition) there is no structure. There is no historical grounding. There is no relating to a known reality. Appearance is unreliable. The VMs has been constructed such that appearance is not reliable and the truth must be found according to religious law. So we are possibly now able to recover certain parts of what would appear to be the VMs creator's innate cultural traditions, and this points to a person or persons familiar with libraries and historical events leading up to those of the mid-1430s, from Paris and Berry and then to Burgundy. The VMs creator has used these disguised elements which combine to establish historical grounding for those who can follow the hidden pathway of tradition[/font]
18-07-2020, 11:54 AM
One thing I noticed is that Voynich human figures are conservative in their shape. I don't think a real mermaid can exist in the VM world, it is either completely anthropomorphic or a complete beast. (Admittedly, this statement is a bit too strong given the sample size). Our awkward "mermaid or female Jonah" situation might be caused by the VM artist's reluctance to draw true hybrids.
At least in Q13...
At least in Q13...
30-07-2020, 07:32 AM
[attachment=4619]
just ran into me.
Male melousine ?
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just ran into me.
Male melousine ?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
30-07-2020, 07:01 PM
Hey, I recognize him! It's Bob! Bob, the Merman. I'm sure of it.
The point is not that multiple interpretations *do not* exist, Multiple interpretations do exist. Because of the ambiguity of the illustration itself, and because of our variations as individuals. The story of Melusine shows that tradition supplies an otherwise unforeseen choice of interpretation, a claim of familial descent from a mythical creature that was common in a number of noble house in a period of time easily encompassing the dates given for the VMs parchment.
Mermaids exist, but they have no provenance, that I know of. Melusine has provenance that is factual, but it is broad, but it includes Valois ancestry. The connection is best seen through Jean de Berry, but also found in Burgundy. This era then becomes an area of interest. The interpretation of the Golden Fleece *offers* a strong potential connection to Burgundy. What I have been looking at shows that investigations of others that have a provenance with the option to include Burgundy
Either the provenance is diffuse, it is unique or it points to nothing. Even the Golden Fleece, if it is an accurate sign, cannot stand with conviction because it has no supporting confirmation, though it has long been suggested as a *possible* interpretation. One thing cannot stand as proof on its own. What I see is a concatenation of provenance. That each item can be shown to have "Burgundy" in its provenance and that it is the combination that indicates the underlying traditional interpretation of the evidence from each of the contributing investigations - like a series of accumulating restrictions in a Venn diagram. The option that remains is Burgundy.
If the VMs / Harley 334 image is seen from the perspective of Burgundy, then Melusine is a possible interpretation. If the interpretation is merely *a* mermaid, then what is the meaning? Is there any 'mermaid' interpretation that has meaning?
It seems to me that investigations have revealed that VMs illustrations show certain historical connections. While some of these investigations show sources with diverse historical origins, there now seem to be several that may come from a common source. None of them stand in isolation, but together they provide potential investigative direction.
The point is not that multiple interpretations *do not* exist, Multiple interpretations do exist. Because of the ambiguity of the illustration itself, and because of our variations as individuals. The story of Melusine shows that tradition supplies an otherwise unforeseen choice of interpretation, a claim of familial descent from a mythical creature that was common in a number of noble house in a period of time easily encompassing the dates given for the VMs parchment.
Mermaids exist, but they have no provenance, that I know of. Melusine has provenance that is factual, but it is broad, but it includes Valois ancestry. The connection is best seen through Jean de Berry, but also found in Burgundy. This era then becomes an area of interest. The interpretation of the Golden Fleece *offers* a strong potential connection to Burgundy. What I have been looking at shows that investigations of others that have a provenance with the option to include Burgundy
Either the provenance is diffuse, it is unique or it points to nothing. Even the Golden Fleece, if it is an accurate sign, cannot stand with conviction because it has no supporting confirmation, though it has long been suggested as a *possible* interpretation. One thing cannot stand as proof on its own. What I see is a concatenation of provenance. That each item can be shown to have "Burgundy" in its provenance and that it is the combination that indicates the underlying traditional interpretation of the evidence from each of the contributing investigations - like a series of accumulating restrictions in a Venn diagram. The option that remains is Burgundy.
If the VMs / Harley 334 image is seen from the perspective of Burgundy, then Melusine is a possible interpretation. If the interpretation is merely *a* mermaid, then what is the meaning? Is there any 'mermaid' interpretation that has meaning?
It seems to me that investigations have revealed that VMs illustrations show certain historical connections. While some of these investigations show sources with diverse historical origins, there now seem to be several that may come from a common source. None of them stand in isolation, but together they provide potential investigative direction.
30-07-2020, 08:57 PM
I don't understand your reaction.
I was just amazed to see a male melousine, I thought it only existed in female form.
I was just amazed to see a male melousine, I thought it only existed in female form.
30-07-2020, 09:17 PM