23-11-2020, 09:31 PM
23-11-2020, 09:31 PM
23-11-2020, 09:37 PM
(23-11-2020, 08:56 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Was is Schlange? Is there another word?"Schlange" means snake. There is no other word for it. I have freely quoted a corresponding picture description from the German Wikipedia. There it is actually called "Schlangenleib" which means something like "snake body".
24-11-2020, 02:22 AM
So there are a few paragraphs on Draco down under myrhology.
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But look, Draco the dragon has no legs!
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Wyverns have two legs qnd dragons have four, at least in some circles.
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That is why the images of Melusine need to be part of the myth, not that that restricts or implies her various physical features as a tutelary fairy.
Other flying serpents are fairly common in mythology and heraldry. Not many of them are half female.
* *
"Schlangenleib" which means something like "snake body".
Could this also be translated as "serpent body"? Does German tend to use the same term for either interpretation? In the modern situation at least, it appears (in my little dictionary) that the 'snake/serpent' distinction does not exist, if 'Schlange' can be interpreted either way.
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But look, Draco the dragon has no legs!
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Wyverns have two legs qnd dragons have four, at least in some circles.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
That is why the images of Melusine need to be part of the myth, not that that restricts or implies her various physical features as a tutelary fairy.
Other flying serpents are fairly common in mythology and heraldry. Not many of them are half female.
* *
"Schlangenleib" which means something like "snake body".
Could this also be translated as "serpent body"? Does German tend to use the same term for either interpretation? In the modern situation at least, it appears (in my little dictionary) that the 'snake/serpent' distinction does not exist, if 'Schlange' can be interpreted either way.
24-11-2020, 11:46 AM
(24-11-2020, 02:22 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Could this also be translated as "serpent body"? Does German tend to use the same term for either interpretation? In the modern situation at least, it appears (in my little dictionary) that the 'snake/serpent' distinction does not exist, if 'Schlange' can be interpreted either way.Yes, this could also be translated as "serpent body", since this is a mythological being. The term "serpent" also exists in German, but it is only used for a deity in the form of a snake (Wikipedia ).
There are for example also winged serpents ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ) in the greeks mythology. Therefore the representation of Melusine with wings is not unusual. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
24-11-2020, 12:08 PM
@ R. Sale
I would appreciate further clarification on the passage in post #28, where a German source, in translation, makes the statement: "and discovers her snake body."
The original text is as follows
Wie mellusina alle samtztag In ainem bad saß Vnd ob dem nabel
ain schonez wibez bild Vnd vnterhalb dem nabel ain vintlicher langer
wurmen schwantz von blawer lasur mit silbrinen runden tröpfflin ge
sprenget vnd gemachet was et cetera
How Melusine every saturday sat in a bath, from the navel upwards the picture of a beautiful woman. below the navel a long "wurmen schwamtz" of blue colour. speckled with silvery round droplets
The German word is wurm, Grimm'sches Wörterbuch: wurm, m., n. , kriechtier; schlange, drache; wurm (vermis), made, raupe; käfer, insekt. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I would appreciate further clarification on the passage in post #28, where a German source, in translation, makes the statement: "and discovers her snake body."
The original text is as follows
Wie mellusina alle samtztag In ainem bad saß Vnd ob dem nabel
ain schonez wibez bild Vnd vnterhalb dem nabel ain vintlicher langer
wurmen schwantz von blawer lasur mit silbrinen runden tröpfflin ge
sprenget vnd gemachet was et cetera
How Melusine every saturday sat in a bath, from the navel upwards the picture of a beautiful woman. below the navel a long "wurmen schwamtz" of blue colour. speckled with silvery round droplets
The German word is wurm, Grimm'sches Wörterbuch: wurm, m., n. , kriechtier; schlange, drache; wurm (vermis), made, raupe; käfer, insekt. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
24-11-2020, 07:15 PM
So German uses a term (Schlange) which lacks the capacity to distinguish between snakes and serpents, based on the distinction that 'snakes' are certain reptiles, while "serpents' includes various reptile species besides snakes, along with creature of a mythological / imaginary dimension.
Melusine has a long "wurmen schwantz", a long wyrm's tail, a dragon's tail, not a snake's tail, because that is the myth of Melusine. She's a fairy, not a naga. There is still plenty of room for alternative illustrations. Interesting to note that the color is specified - blue with silver droplets - not some dull green. "Silvery round droplets" like the ambiguous "eye" on a certain VMs 'fish'?
Do the specifics of this description have any known history?
Melusine has a long "wurmen schwantz", a long wyrm's tail, a dragon's tail, not a snake's tail, because that is the myth of Melusine. She's a fairy, not a naga. There is still plenty of room for alternative illustrations. Interesting to note that the color is specified - blue with silver droplets - not some dull green. "Silvery round droplets" like the ambiguous "eye" on a certain VMs 'fish'?
Do the specifics of this description have any known history?
24-11-2020, 09:02 PM
25-11-2020, 05:58 AM
The linked illustration (Post #37) shows that the artist, Heinrich Vogeler (1872-1942) got the message. Her lower half of his Melusine is blue.
This story has the three sisters transformed into a sparrow hawk, a dragon, and a female snake. Other sources confirm that the dragon is Melusine.
In the VMs version, the corresponding lower portion of the figure is also painted blue.
This story has the three sisters transformed into a sparrow hawk, a dragon, and a female snake. Other sources confirm that the dragon is Melusine.
In the VMs version, the corresponding lower portion of the figure is also painted blue.
25-11-2020, 09:48 PM
Lusignan versus Luxembourg is a comparison that shows different images of Melusine.
Lusignan is the castle of Melusine and Raymond in Poitou, This is the story from Jean d'Arras promoted by Jean de Barry prior to 1400, that set forth various copies in French and German. Lusignan was a castle captured by Jean de Berry. This is the version of Melusine that much of the investigation has provided.
And there is a second factor. If there is a significant factor tied to Melusine that is contemporary with VMs Carbon dating, then that would be the rise of the Valois influence in France and beyond. These were the four sons of Bonne of Luxembourg. And the Melusine of Luxembourg is not the same as the Melusine of Lusignan in the d'Arras versions. The Melusine of Luxembourg married Siegfried - same story, different crew. The Meusine of Luxembourg tends to be more of a 'mermaid', (so it says), while some of the French images are more of a dragon. So using a Lusignan-related set of images to interpret a Luxembourg-related depiction might have its problems.
[The House of Luxembourg controls the HRE till 1437, outside the Valois connections.]
This move to the middle between dragon and fish opens further opportunity for ambiguity regarding the actual appearance of Melusine, but - as they say - blue is blue. If the interpretation is Valois, then it is the Melusine of Luxembourg. And she is, in her lower part, more fish-like and blue than your average tutelary fairy. As would seem to be the case with VMs f79v.
And then there is the question whether one of the companion animals is a representation of the Golden Fleece. The interpretation can be questioned, but the provenance referenced is clearly Valois.
Lusignan is the castle of Melusine and Raymond in Poitou, This is the story from Jean d'Arras promoted by Jean de Barry prior to 1400, that set forth various copies in French and German. Lusignan was a castle captured by Jean de Berry. This is the version of Melusine that much of the investigation has provided.
And there is a second factor. If there is a significant factor tied to Melusine that is contemporary with VMs Carbon dating, then that would be the rise of the Valois influence in France and beyond. These were the four sons of Bonne of Luxembourg. And the Melusine of Luxembourg is not the same as the Melusine of Lusignan in the d'Arras versions. The Melusine of Luxembourg married Siegfried - same story, different crew. The Meusine of Luxembourg tends to be more of a 'mermaid', (so it says), while some of the French images are more of a dragon. So using a Lusignan-related set of images to interpret a Luxembourg-related depiction might have its problems.
[The House of Luxembourg controls the HRE till 1437, outside the Valois connections.]
This move to the middle between dragon and fish opens further opportunity for ambiguity regarding the actual appearance of Melusine, but - as they say - blue is blue. If the interpretation is Valois, then it is the Melusine of Luxembourg. And she is, in her lower part, more fish-like and blue than your average tutelary fairy. As would seem to be the case with VMs f79v.
And then there is the question whether one of the companion animals is a representation of the Golden Fleece. The interpretation can be questioned, but the provenance referenced is clearly Valois.
26-11-2020, 07:26 PM
Melusine of Luxembourg was a tutelary fairy and mythical ancestress of the House of Luxembourg.
Versions of the Luxembourg story are #3, #4 & #5
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Melusine of Luxembourg seems to have her own personality and appearance. She is depicted in a way that is more mermaid-like, and this depiction seems to have lost sight of the fact that Melusine is really not a mermaid. Melusine only spent Saturday in her secluded bath, the rest of the week, (we can only assume), she seemed to be a normal two-legged woman - over a period of years. And she produced children, otherwise she wouldn't be anybody's ancestress. And in the end, Melusine of Luxembourg did not fly away, instead she sank into the depths of the cliffs. Traditional mermaids don't do that - either way. They just stay mermaids.
Another interesting historical member of the House of Luxembourg: Jacquetta of Luxembourg.
She was the second wife of John, Duke of Bedford. He commanded English forces in northern France, and occupied Paris between 1420 and 1435.
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Versions of the Luxembourg story are #3, #4 & #5
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Melusine of Luxembourg seems to have her own personality and appearance. She is depicted in a way that is more mermaid-like, and this depiction seems to have lost sight of the fact that Melusine is really not a mermaid. Melusine only spent Saturday in her secluded bath, the rest of the week, (we can only assume), she seemed to be a normal two-legged woman - over a period of years. And she produced children, otherwise she wouldn't be anybody's ancestress. And in the end, Melusine of Luxembourg did not fly away, instead she sank into the depths of the cliffs. Traditional mermaids don't do that - either way. They just stay mermaids.
Another interesting historical member of the House of Luxembourg: Jacquetta of Luxembourg.
She was the second wife of John, Duke of Bedford. He commanded English forces in northern France, and occupied Paris between 1420 and 1435.
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