The Voynich Ninja

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(22-01-2020, 01:20 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In fact what we need is full transcription of a sufficient number of supposedly "relevant" texts, preferably in different languages (to see if there are patterns inherent to all languages).

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Biblioteca Universitaria di Bologna MS 2861, pointed out by Nick looks like a good candidate (mostly Italian, some Latin, XV Century).
It is the i,a,o endings where it makes me think so. Non tum, tus, sis vis .....

By the way:
If you take the trouble to read the recipes in different languages, you should keep an eye on the different plants where they are used.
Compare them with those in the VM.
For example, I have seen some hazel, houseleek and viola, but no water lily.
That alone tells me that they exist.
(22-01-2020, 01:40 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(22-01-2020, 01:20 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In fact what we need is full transcription of a sufficient number of supposedly "relevant" texts, preferably in different languages (to see if there are patterns inherent to all languages).

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Biblioteca Universitaria di Bologna MS 2861, pointed out by Nick looks like a good candidate (mostly Italian, some Latin, XV Century).

Yes and no. I mean not the source itself (which is a good candidate), but the transcription. This transcription is made to read and understand the text, not to analyze it from the statistical point of view. I think that, from methodological perspective, we should analyze contemporary writings from the same angle that we do analyze the VMS - that is, we should take words (tokens) at their face value. For example, if a word reads "uñ" (short for "und"), we should take it as "uñ", not expanding that to "und". Firstly, not doing so will distort character statistics. Secondly, the same word can be abbreviated in several ways, and those will be different tokens. Expanded form is one and the same token. That distorts the word statistics.

I approach the transcription as if I would do with the VMS. And I face exactly the same problems (my weak knowledge of German adds to that): is it one glyph or another? Is there a space there or no space? Should I attribute the macron to one letter or to two letters?
Yes, I agree. The Bologna transcription is better than many others, since it preserves the original line-breaks and marks abbreviations in parentheses. But it is not a diplomatic transcription.
Sadly, diplomatic transcriptions are seldom published and it is unlikely you will find any of a collection of recipes. But who knows?
I did not even try to find such, proceeded to make one myself. One thing that I immediately noticed is that hyphenation is not uncommon without marking it. For example, "sel" is in the end of the line, and "ben" is in th ebeginning of the next line, but this is just one intended word "selben".
@ Anton and Marco

There is an onlin edition of the Antidotarium Magnum, maybe it is of help to you

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cp. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

and there are Wikipedia artcles on the Circa Instans and the AM in the German W. which could be of help as well
(22-01-2020, 04:53 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@ Anton and Marco

There is an onlin edition of the Antidotarium Magnum, maybe it is of help to you

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cp. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

and there are Wikipedia artcles on the Circa Instans and the AM in the German W. which could be of help as well

Thank you, Helmut. It seems that no online transcription is available, but the second paper you linked provides a list of manuscripts and early printed editions. This book is about compound medicines, hence it fits well the common interpretation of the Voynich "pharma"/small-plants-with-containers section. 
Also in this case, each "antidote" appears to be considerably longer than a paragraph in the pharma and recipes/Q20 Voynich sections.
These are some measures of the average number of words in a paragraph for a few texts that have been mentioned in this thread.
For the VMS, I used the Zandbergen-Landini transcription, ignoring dubious spaces and using '<$>' as a paragraph marker. The number of paragraphs in Q20 might be slightly underestimated, hence words per paragraph might be closer to 30 than to 36.
I could find online transcriptions of the two Alfonsine works. For the Bologna ms I used the transcription linked by Nick.
I split the BNF ms pointed out by Nick into two parts: the initial lexicon and the main body of text (352 numbered recipes). Between the two there is a third shorter section (a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) that does not look promising: entries are short and mostly consist of numbers.

The measures for the BNF ms are less reliable, since they are based on extrapolation from  my rough counts of a few pages. I guess that the actual measures might differ by +/-10%.

VMS_Q20_recipes Nwords:10092 Npar:280 AvgWordPerPar:36 [30?]
VMS_Pharma Nwords:2168 Npar:44 AvgWordPerPar:49

Alfonso_X_Lapidario Nwords:81227 Npar:322 AvgWordPerPar:252
Alfonso_X_Astromagia Nwords:5261 Npar:251 AvgWordPerPar:21
Bologna_ms_2861 Nwords:46798 Npar:392 AvgWordPerPar:119
BNF6741_lexicon_2r15r Nwords:5000 Npar:200 AvgWordPerPar:25
BNF6741_main_text Nwords:48000 Npar:352 AvgWordPerPar:136


In my opinion, these figures suggest that the two recipes collections (the Bologna ms and the BNF main text) are not good matches for the Pharma section and even less so for Q20: paragraphs are much longer than in the VMS.
The Lapidario is even worse: at least 5 times longer than average VMS paragraphs.

The remaining two texts appear to be closer:

1. Zodiac degrees in Alfonso's astromagia book BAV Reg.Lat.1283a has paragraphs whose length is comparable with Q20. But paragraphs here are highly repetitive: they don't look much like Q20. For instance, these are the figures I get for MATTR 100 using Nablator's java class:
Astromagia:0.55
VMS_Q20:0.84

Looking at the first four degrees in the manuscript (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Aries is missing) it is easy to see how rigid the structure of these paragraphs is. Nothing like the VMS:

Enel primero grado del signo de tauro sube u(n) omne que trahe un to-ro. El qui nasciere en el sera lazrado & traba-iador & amara mucho el mundo.

Enel segundo grado sube una mugier que tiene enla mano adu fle. El qui nasçiere enel sera amador de solaz & de estrumentos  & de todas cosas que pertene-cen a alegria.

En el tercero grado sube una donzella desnu-ya. El qui nasciere en el sera pobre & lazrado &

Enel quarto grado sube una mu ¶ desnuyo. gier que tiene en la mano un estrument quel dizen queber. El qui nasciere en el sera assaca-dor de nueuas & de muchas palabras & grand
¶ mintiroso


2. The lexicon in BNF Lat.6741 (from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to f15r). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is like a colour-making-dictionary, with alphabetically sorted entries. While alphabetical order is a problem when matching against Q20, I think that the alternation of blue and red initial letters in these pages is an interesting parallel with the coloured stars in Q20. The number of pages (26) is also comparable with Q20 (24, but with some missing pages).

Obviously, each entry in the BNF lexicon starts with a different word [EDIT: nope]. On the other hand, about 20% of Q20 paragraphs share the same initial word. Also the idea that Q20 might be a lexicon has its problems, but at the moment this seems to me a better candidate than the others. It will be interesting to see if we can find a collection of more-or-less uniformly short recipes.
The length of the paragraphs is a good metric. Besides the average length, I would immediately suggest to compare the RMS deviation. Are all recipes roughly of the same length? Or there are some extremely short, others extremely long?...

About the structure. This is the domain which needs careful consideration. The text might have been written backwards, or each line backwards.
Looking more carefully at the lexicon in BNF Lat.6741, it turns out that the order is not strictly alphabetical: entries are grouped by the first character, but the other characters appear not to be considered. Also, there are entries with the same initial word, where the second word is an adjective restricting the meaning. For instance these are consecutive entries in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
Caprifoliu(m)
Creta alba
Creta viridis
Cristicula
Cerulens
Carbo

This illustrates both the repetition of the first word and the fact that only the first character is used for sorting.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are about different plants ("herba morella", "herba sandix", "herba vactimum", "herba viola").

There are two different stones ("lapis") in 9v, two "niger" and two "nigri" in 10r, two "rubeas" in 12r, two "succus" in 13r, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., two "viridis" in 14v.

In the end, the rate of repeating paragraph-initial words is not dramatically far from that in Q20.

Also, as in the BNF ms , some of the repetitions in Q20 cluster in the same page. For instance, four polaiin paragraphs appear in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). There are a few other cases, though less extensive I think. Of course, this evidence is not enough to claim that Q20 is semi-alphabetically sorted, but the differences from the colour-lexicon seem to be fewer than I initially thought.

I must say I am happy with these findings: thanks again to Nick and Anton for sharing their ideas!
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