Vviews it is true that what we name things doesnt matter so much to our understanding of same, and i can certainly live with things as they are, but there doesn't really seem to be a reason to continue calling things by names of things we don't think they are, just because someone in the past thought that might be what they were, beyond the history of people having referred to it as such in the past because of that historical idea. Doesn't seem like a good reason to continue what was bad practice to begin with. Is there any background to the recipe idea beyond someone once thinking it might be? (I don't know) At least my quire 13 and zodiac ideas are based on actual commonalities between them and Quire 20.
For anyone new, it gets them going in the wrong direction to hear things described as recipes and bilological sections. For anyone who has been looking at it for awhile it still puts inferences in one's thinking. In absence of one's own concrete ideas about something, one will revert to the past input of others. Don't imagine a pink elephant right now...oops too late...
You mentioned Nick's blog re Q20, he did the same recently re quire 13 and balnealogical manuscripts, but i think these assumptions will just get in the way of progress, since i think they are wrong and will likely just waste time. Not standing in the way of it, just stating my case. By the way i am fine with the zodiac section terminology, mostly because it is spread across a bunch of quires and mixed in with other stuff, and i think still easier to figure out which pages are referred to than by calling it a calendar.
Well some things are just historically called something, albeit the names might be inadequate. That's the piece of history and tradition. Personally, I have no problems with that.
But what I suggested is not a discussion of terminology. Moreover, I explicitly suggest the assumption of these VMS sections providing some kind of recipes as the starting point. Investigation starts with assumptions, the latter may lead somewhere or may lead to nowhere. That's the way of the researcher.
From this perspective, a researcher may be considered as a person who goes to nowhere. But, at the same time, s/he always aims to somewhere because s/he has some methodology and is not wandering blindly.
I do not object to the point of view that these sections may contain no recipes. On the contrary, that's entirely possible. But the idea of this thread is to test "what if they do". Who does not want to do that and would investigate other opportunities, that's perfectly OK and is only to the benefit of the research, because the more pathways are explored, the more raw data is gathered, at the very least.
Many questions have accumulated there once again.
Actually I was looking for a clue where I have seen before, but haven't found it yet.
Thereby I found an interesting book and started reading. It deals with the obstetrics and nursing of babies from 1450, which is the reason why I continue reading.
1. the prescription from today's point of view has most of the information like weight or mass. These are rather rare to read.
One should see it rather as a treatment method.
It is determined what it is, and then what needs to be done.
It is actually always the same, but sometimes there are names of plants, "so take this and mix it with wine or vinegar, so you should drink it for XX days, so you should .............
2. I need to know how it could be written.
Example: In German "so sollte man" is written in Alemanic " so söt mer / so sötmer".
So it is actually funny for me when computer specialists feed their PC with today's dictionaries, when they should actually use an idioticom.
That leads me also directly to ....
3. one
Solving encryption if I don't know the language is almost unlikely. But how can I do that even if there is no dictionary.
I am almost certain, simple encryption with a spoken dialect form.
4. if I assume that the author possibly speaks German, and wants to convert this into a Latin, he does not even need a lot of Latin words with the help of German medical books. Without technical terms 200-300 words should be enough.
This is how I see it.
Quote:So it is actually funny for me when computer specialists feed their PC with today's dictionaries, when they should actually use an idioticom.
Not just the epoch matters, but also the subject. I have suggested more than once that it is methodologically inappropriate to compare Voynich stats with those of Dante or King James Bible.
I don't know if it has been done before but i always wanted to set this up for myself, just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Create a dossier of each page which lists all the other pages that contain the same vords on it (specifying the vord, or group of vords (vhrases?) of course).
Also a list of vords and the page numbers they occur. I think this has been done?
Then do a report on each dossier, and possibly each vord, to discuss the commonalities or lack thereof, especially among similar pages, (like among a certain section) where comparisons could then be made on such groups of pages.
Voynichese.com is good for visualizing one or a few vords at a time, although may include or exclude a few that it shouldn't, notes could be made about those too. This example came from Job's comment You are not allowed to view links.
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to Nick's blog on the subject that Vviews posted earlier in the thread. I chose qokeey as the yellow one to illustrate the idea i mentioned that this particular vord has more commonality with quire 13 than with the plants. It doesn't occur on You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. though, this might mean something. However You are not allowed to view links.
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Anyway, i did that to a small extent for quire 13 since that was my particular interest when i started looking into the manuscript.
I suggest doing this for the entire manuscript, but can be done with any piece(s) desired of course.
Medieval indexes were different.
Very different from how we perceive them. Many of them did NOT have numbers. Not a single one. In a sense, they were annotations. Sometimes the entire manuscript was simply an index (a sort of abbreviated commentary of each section in the main manuscript, sometimes 2 to 4 lines).
Quire 20 sounds good to me.
(20-01-2020, 02:09 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Create a dossier of each page which lists all the other pages that contain the same vords on it (specifying the vord, or group of vords (vhrases?) of course).
...
I've done that. I created a concordance. Every single word-relationship in the manuscript. I could have automated it, but I wanted to SEE the relationships and also record beginnings and endings of vords and to break down the VMS sections into finer categories.
It took a couple of years. 1100+ pages. What it taught me is that the textual patterns are not what one would expect for normal relationships between words. I'm hoping I can salvage something out of it for the time spent.
(20-01-2020, 02:09 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know if it has been done before but i always wanted to set this up for myself, just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Create a dossier of each page which lists all the other pages that contain the same vords on it (specifying the vord, or group of vords (vhrases?) of course).
Also a list of vords and the page numbers they occur. I think this has been done?
This is basically what I envision doing in compiling a Voynichese lexicon. All vords that occur in the VMs listed as entries in (some sort of well-defined) alphabetical order, along with important metrics for each, most prominently token count. I used to read dictionaries when I was bored and lonely as a kid. I eventually moved on to English to foreign language dictionaries. It fascinated me how words that were connected in terms of use, meaning, and etymological origin often occur adjacently in the dictionary. What this taught me is that one method a lot of languages use to express similar (but not the same) ideas is to keep the beginning of the word the same, and change the ending.
If you or I or someone else ends up doing this, I wonder if we're going to see patterns in the entries that are supportive of many vords, particularly unique or low-frequency vords, being inflections of more common vords.
(19-01-2020, 11:45 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Gemstones - too many paragraphs, not that many gemstones out there
I know it's OT, but still worth pointing out I think:
the first part of You are not allowed to view links.
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Libro de las piedras según los grados de los signos del zodíaco).
322 stars appear in the recipes section: since folios 109 and 110 are missing, the original total must have been very close to 360.
(20-01-2020, 10:11 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I know it's OT, but sill worth pointing out I think:
the first part of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (13th century) listed a stone for each degree of the zodiac: 360 stones (Libro de las piedras según los grados de los signos del zodíaco).
322 stars appear in the recipes section: since folios 109 and 110 are missing, the original total must have been very close to 360.
I don't know whether lapidaries are OT, but the likely correspondence to 360 degrees certainly is not. I guess this would make the possibility of recipes less likely though, again underlining the unfortunate historical name.
Do we know of any other items that were linked to the degrees of the Zodiac? I'm not too familiar with this concept.