(20-01-2020, 10:11 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (19-01-2020, 11:45 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Gemstones - too many paragraphs, not that many gemstones out there
I know it's OT, but still worth pointing out I think:
the first part of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (13th century) listed a stone for each degree of the zodiac: 360 stones (Libro de las piedras según los grados de los signos del zodíaco).
Are they all unique or repeating? I remember when I explored the "Voynich stars" I considered a lapidary, and I have the remembrance that medieval lapidaries were of the order of tens, not hundreds, of stones.
(20-01-2020, 02:24 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (20-01-2020, 10:11 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (19-01-2020, 11:45 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Gemstones - too many paragraphs, not that many gemstones out there
I know it's OT, but still worth pointing out I think:
the first part of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (13th century) listed a stone for each degree of the zodiac: 360 stones (Libro de las piedras según los grados de los signos del zodíaco).
Are they all unique or repeating? I remember when I explored the "Voynich stars" I considered a lapidary, and I have the remembrance that medieval lapidaries were of the order of tens, not hundreds, of stones.
If you click on the link I posted, you can check the actual text. This manuscript is also incomplete and only about 300 stone-paragraphs were preserved. Each degree of the zodiac has its own paragraph (about 200 words each). Some stone names are associated with more than one degree, but most of the stones are mentioned only once.
(20-01-2020, 10:49 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do we know of any other items that were linked to the degrees of the Zodiac? I'm not too familiar with this concept.
Two other examples we discussed on the forum are:
- Alfonso's Astromagia ms You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. This has been mentioned several times on the forum. It likely was the manuscript of which Panofsky thought when he first saw the Voynich zodiac. In this case, each of the 360 paragraphs describes an "image" associated with the degrees. These images were inspired by the parts of constellations (asterisms) located in the corresponding degree. As for the Lapidario, each sign has a full-page illustration with a zodiac medallion at the centre and 30 radial segments. The corresponding 30 text paragraphs precede the illustrations.
- The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in Ars Paulina. This appears to be later and I am only aware of a list of names: no corresponding paragraphs.
By analogy with the Lapidario and Reg.Lat.1283.a, one can think that the VMS starred-paragraphs correspond to the star-bearing nymphs in the zodiac. I am sure this idea has been mentioned before. IIRC Rene tried matching nymph-labels and star-paragraphs: he did find some consecutive matches (maybe for Pisces?) but nothing systematic enough.
Another option is that the star-paragraphs originally were 365 and that they correspond to the days of the year. At the moment, I am not aware of works with a separate paragraph for each day of the year. Overall, stones and asterisms seem to me a better candidate for Q20.
Of course, it could be that the paragraphs are totally unrelated with the degrees or the days: they may be 300-something paragraphs about anything.
(20-01-2020, 10:49 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know whether lapidaries are OT, but the likely correspondence to 360 degrees certainly is not. I guess this would make the possibility of recipes less likely though, again underlining the unfortunate historical name.
A better word for what I mean would have been "procedure" or "recommendation". Imagine "recipe" not as a cooking recipe but as a procedure or prescription.
(20-01-2020, 03:16 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Of course, it could be that the paragraphs are totally unrelated with the degrees or the days: they may be 300-something paragraphs about anything.
I think we actually have a large number of codicological clues as to what is going on in Quire 20, and that we really should find a reliable and solid way of piecing the jigsaw back into its original form - this should be something we can all contribute towards regardless of our positions with respect to other aspects of the manuscript.
I've posted lots of times about Q20, but haven't yet managed to find a way to weave all the strands together satisfactorily, e.g. in 2016:
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The manuscript discussed by Nick (You are not allowed to view links.
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The work that Nick is more interested in (by the Milanese Alcherio / Alcerio / Alcherius) begins at You are not allowed to view links.
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A few recipes at the end of the ms (after Alcherio's work) are in French, all the others are in Latin. Nick writes that Alcherio's work was originally written in Italian.
The recipes have different lengths and different formats in the various works. Averagely they are much longer than VMS Q20 paragraphs. The BNF ms is 101 folios, I think it contains about 60,000 words, vs about 10,000 in Q20 (as Nick observed, the number of recipes is comparable).
Some patterns in Lat 6741:
You are not allowed to view links.
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56 ad faciendum ... accipe ... pone
63 ad faciendum ... accipe ... pone
100 ad faciendum ... accipe ... ponas
101 ad faciendum ... accipe ... ponas
102 ad faciendum ... accipe ... ponas
103 ad faciendum ... accipe ... pone
106 ad faciendum ... accipe ... ponas
107 ad faciendum ... accipe ... pone
108 ad faciendum ... accipe ... pone
110 ad faciendum ... accipe ... pone
111 ad faciendum ... accipe ... ponas
114 ad faciendum ... accipe ... pone
With a full transcription, it would be easy to sytematically search for other patterns (the recipes seem rather repetitive). Of course, one can search for similar patterns in the VMS as well.
BTW, I noticed another group of recipes written in French (89-99).
I can't read either, but one looks more like Italian than Latin to me.
In fact what we need is full transcription of a sufficient number of supposedly "relevant" texts, preferably in different languages (to see if there are patterns inherent to all languages).
I have commenced the work of transcribing recipes parts of MsMurQ12 and have done 1,5 pages so far. This does not seem a quick work, but I will share the results when I'm ready. What I can say so far is that "und" (actually its abbreviated form of "un") appears to be the most common word. I judge at a glance and have not performed calculations yet. Looking at Marco's excerpt, I see that "et" is quite frequent there as well.
(22-01-2020, 01:09 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can't read either, but one looks more like Italian than Latin to me.
Interesting: it looks like good Latin to me. 'e' for 'ae' is the norm in medieval Latin, and dropping an initial 'h' is not strange either. I see nothing specifically Italian-like.
55. Ad faciendum vermes auri, vel qui videantur deaurati, pro deaurando qu[a]e vis. Accipe cerebrum tauri et pone in vase marmoris, et stet per tres [h]ebdomadas, et invenies intus vermes facientes aurum, et custodi bene.