The Voynich Ninja

"The [Voynich] language is an agglutinative, phonetic form of defective Hebrew, and also uses some Greek words like yaya for grandmother."
      --- M. Yokubinas

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I don't agree that the Latin "-ris" shape (EVA-m) resembles Hebrew thav. It's completely different. Even if you mirror it, it's not similar.

I also don't agree that the minims look like shin. I've looked at many many Hebrew manuscripts and I've never seen shin written like "ain".

I also don't think VMS "a" looks like samekh. Even if you mirror it, it isn't really the same.

I don't think the long-cee looks anything like yod.

The figure-8 letter (EVA-d) doesn't look like the sample, either. It has a long straight stem. And normally this letter does not have a loop (and when it does, it's usually more triangular, like the old Phoenician letters).


What the shapes represent is another issue, but as for shape similarities, I don't find them particularly similar.

Ignoring shapes for a moment, and just looking at the glyph dynamics, the author has equated Hebrew gimel to EVA-y (9 shape) but it seems unlikely that gimel would occur so frequently at the ends of words, sometimes at the beginning, but almost never anywhere else in a word.

This is gimel: ג    and some words with gimel where the letter is within the word:
  בגדים  אגוז מלך  מגבת  אנגלית  אגודל

It's essentially a substitution code with subjective interpretation for individual "alchemical" glyphs.

This is one of those solutions with ridiculous amounts of freedom, producing garbage results.

(03-05-2019, 06:03 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is one of those solutions with ridiculous amounts of freedom, producing garbage results.

 Actually the results have been very enlightening and disturbing when it comes to plant information and the 9 rosette folio. 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  I do not claim to have everything correct nor understand the language used. This is a mere peek into what is being conveyed. It is not the Hebrew language.

(03-05-2019, 01:35 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."The [Voynich] language is an agglutinative, phonetic form of defective Hebrew, and also uses some Greek words like yaya for grandmother."
      --- M. Yokubinas

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


.
I don't agree that the Latin "-ris" shape (EVA-m) resembles Hebrew thav. It's completely different. Even if you mirror it, it's not similar.

I also don't agree that the minims look like shin. I've looked at many many Hebrew manuscripts and I've never seen shin written like "ain".

I also don't think VMS "a" looks like samekh. Even if you mirror it, it isn't really the same.

I don't think the long-cee looks anything like yod.

The figure-8 letter (EVA-d) doesn't look like the sample, either. It has a long straight stem. And normally this letter does not have a loop (and when it does, it's usually more triangular, like the old Phoenician letters).


What the shapes represent is another issue, but as for shape similarities, I don't find them particularly similar.

Ignoring shapes for a moment, and just looking at the glyph dynamics, the author has equated Hebrew gimel to EVA-y (9 shape) but it seems unlikely that gimel would occur so frequently at the ends of words, sometimes at the beginning, but almost never anywhere else in a word.

This is gimel: ג    and some words with gimel where the letter is within the word:
  בגדים  אגוז מלך  מגבת  אנגלית  אגודל

It's essentially a substitution code with subjective interpretation for individual "alchemical" glyphs.

The Gimel being utilized in the Voynich is like adding 'of' to a word. For example 'apyg' = epic of, 'ypyg' = beauty of, 'Kahyg' = because of...
This is not the Hebrew language, it is someone's coded work utilizing a defective for of Hebrew phonetics.

Hi, Monica, welcome to the forum,

If the EVA-y glyph y (which you have referred to as "gimel") is used to represent "of", then how is the "g" sound represented in the VMS text?

The g sound, in one form or another, exists in pretty much every language in that area (and pretty much all of Europe, as well).

(03-05-2019, 05:03 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi, Monica, welcome to the forum,

If the EVA-y glyph y (which you have referred to as "gimel") is used to represent "of", then how is the "g" sound represented in the VMS text?

The g sound, in one form or another, exists in pretty much every language in that area (and pretty much all of Europe, as well).

Kinda the same as you would use an 'He' in Hebrew at the end of a word and it is not always translated. Whomever wrote the Voynich seemed to switch the 'He' ending with the 'Gimel' but it is still utilized as a 'g' sound when in the beginning of a word.
Anther example of single letter usage would be the '4' Voynich symbol used for 'Khaf" in Hebrew and can either be the start of a word Kahsn = be vexed hated one, or meaning 'like' or 'you' kaypyarg = like beautiful weaver.  In this paper I do have scanned notes on how it was done... yes the translation is old school, because i can go faster, and am making some important discoveries of plant usage that has been lost; like being able to eat the tuber/sweet potato of the bladder campion on 33r not just the leaves as a winter pot herb. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Again, not the Hebrew language, but someone who is using a phonetic form to hide information. After reading the translation the 9 rosette folio you can understand why. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The system is not perfect, I cannot tell you the language (my theory is the Khazarian lost language) but it does give a peek into what is being conveyed.
Hope this helps.

It's very much possible that the EVA-y glyph y  has some kindof double duty (may be the language has a single letter for 2 sounds and the position of the glyph in a word determines the sound to be used), and the native speakers will know it out of practise.. But this is as good as any other guess out there, and without some kindof system to check whether your results are real or just coincidence, nothing can be said about the proposed sound values.. 

Can you apply them to the folio 68 star labels and see if you can build up a big picture that makes sense?

Btw I was looking for online resources about Chagatai with little success, as I thought it could be a  possible candidate, since the Empire extended to the Northwest of India, and thus can have Persian and Indic language influences.. 


Just go on with your translations, and post more information as you go..

Whether EVA-y does double duty or not, WHERE is the "g" sound in the middles of words? I didn't really get an answer to that. Gimel or "g" is common in Hebrew and pretty much every language.

There has to be something to represent "g" within words if this is believed to be natural language (which I think is what Monica intends).

Quote:Monica: "...like being able to eat the tuber/sweet potato of the bladder campion on 33r not just the leaves as a winter pot herb."

I have my own ideas about what You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might represent, but most people seem to think it's papaver (poppy) and not bladder campion.

The top of the VMS stalk does not look like a bladder, it looks like a seed capsule. Those are not petals, they are the rosette at the top of a seed capsule. Bladder campion has five sets of split petals, not at all like the VMS drawing.

The roots of bladder campion are usually like a nest of thin tap roots. They're a bit like buttercup roots. Occasionally they are like a slightly thicker dandelion root, but those are mostly the North American varieties, not the European ones. European species usually have thinner and more numerous roots. You wouldn't really call them tubers.

Here is a pic of the European version:



Also note how the leaves are in PAIRS, at intervals up the stalk, not at all like the VMS leaves in shape, size, or distribution.

Also, the roots are not usually eaten. The leaves and shoots are eaten. The roots are usually used for soap (the saponins in the roots are good for cleaning but are bitter and mildly toxic if eaten).

(03-05-2019, 09:02 PM)Common_Man Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's very much possible that the EVA-y glyph y  has some kindof double duty (may be the language has a single letter for 2 sounds and the position of the glyph in a word determines the sound to be used), and the native speakers will know it out of practise.. But this is as good as any other guess out there, and without some kindof system to check whether your results are real or just coincidence, nothing can be said about the proposed sound values.. 

Can you apply them to the folio 68 star labels and see if you can build up a big picture that makes sense?

Btw I was looking for online resources about Chagatai with little success, as I thought it could be a  possible candidate, since the Empire extended to the Northwest of India, and thus can have Persian and Indic language influences.. 


Just go on with your translations, and post more information as you go..

Thank you. I started working on these a while back and put aside while translating the 9 rosette and alchemical pages of 66r. 
68r center split, left word 'achuraz'  achur = West + az = at that time/then; right word 'spquzrg' spq = entrance + u = and + zr = to vex awake, hence East. Bottom sentence inner circle "Healer judge treasure stored, flower favored, in him is strength to become a watchman. Peace elevated, free from the bridle."  I will go back to these at at a later time. 

I have been trying to find the original Persian runes but all i'm coming up with is Arabic. Someone's university has to have the original ones.