The Voynich Ninja

Draw a castor bean for me once with a quill pen.
And I'll tell you later that it looks like green figs.

Roofwort, or houseleek.
And what about this? It also appears in the VM.
It used to be a rule to plant it on the roof. Hence the name "roof houseleek".

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(12-08-2022, 04:25 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."Look at the funny violets. Okay, look. Now what?"
Now one is looking for the accompanying text of exactly this plant in various medical books. Now examine this text among themselves and look for similarities.
The more often a match appears, the higher the possibility that it occurs in the VM text.
With this, I may not be able to solve the riddle of the VM, but it gives the possibility to better understand the text and how it is structured. Maybe there is a feature that only this plant has and a word that only occurs once in the VM and that is right there.
Such hits would be wonderful.

I agree. If VMs investigations were to work smoothly, without unexpected difficulties, that is how it might work. But does it really work that way? There were discussions about using this technique of specific botanical identifications a while back. Violets was one of the examples, "hemp" was another, and a couple others. There are matching identifications in various historical herbals, so there is the "opportunity" for text comparison. It was the part regarding the collection, transcription and translation of the historical texts that never got off the ground.

The problem of visual similarity is a real conundrum. In some old herbals, one can read the name of the plant, and yet the accompanying illustration is 'not useful for identification'. It's like a medieval herbal that is some sort of bestiary for plants.

I disagree with the blackberry identification of f46v. The branching is wrong. Blackberries have a central berry, and behind that are branches and sub-branches with other berries, like the blackberry illustration - not like the VMs, and the VMs has no thorns.

I follow the identification of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as costmary. Costmary was called the Herb of the Virgin (Mary). The roots can be interpreted as the wings of Saint Michael in his role as 'conveyor of souls' at the Assumption of Mary. In which case, the text might be religious, not botanical.

I'm sure you're right. I wouldn't put my hand in the fire for blackberry here either.
The interesting thing for me is that the plant emerged from experiments with words in cryptology.
Plant from a word and not word from plant.
But there is a certain similarity.

As I said before, lady's mint is a very good candidate. Certainly better than blackberry.

Another thing to do is to look at the uses of a medicinal plant, this might help to get a better picture of the person.

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When it comes to presentation, you also have to look at it from a different position.

Example.
I always draw something from the side because I'm used to it.
Sometimes I think.......Shit, I'd better draw the coin from above.
That could be exactly what happened with the root.
With heraldry, however, it should still be clearly recognisable what it is.
Question? Did I do that, or is it all just a coincidence because you can draw it like that? The root exists like this, in reality.

So, how about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as costmary? Who's in charge of reviewing proposals and updating the list?

Beyond just being a possible plant ID, there is also the question of textual correspondence with a relevant botanical monograph from a known historical herbal. [Far-fetched as that may seem.]

To help identify the plant is question (Tanaetum balsamita), it needs to have a name.

Costmary, costmarie, coursemary; costum & costumeum.
Alecost, Balsam Herb, Balsamita, Great Balsamite, Grande Balsamite, Menthe-coq, Mace & Rooster Mint.

Undoubtedly there are others, German or Dutch or Spanish?

What corresponding texts exist in historical herbal manuscripts?

I guess I'm in charge of updating the list. My goal for this thread was not to identify as many plants as possible. Rather on the contrary, it was to find those few exceptional plants about which an unusual amount of agreement existed. (Unanimous agreement would be better, but this does not exist).

My approach was to try and find several "witnesses" to a plant ID. I always checked the lists of old proposals on Rene's site (Sherwood etc.). JKP always chimed in. Reactions of other forum members. If I noticed a clear preferred candidate emerging, I knew I could add it to the list. If there are a dozen different options and none really stand out, then this it cannot be added to the list, that's not what this thread is about.

If a plant has traditionally been identified as viola tricolor and we still think it is viola tricolor, then it is a strong candidate for the list, because people with different backgrounds and working in different centuries recognize it as the same thing.

What is the point of this thread? It has no direct point, but this information may be used by others. If you want to test a text solution, one of these plants may be a place to start. Or maybe you are studying sources the VM may have used, and you want some examples of more naturalistic, recognizable plants. The possibilities are endless.

The original list is in Post #1. Have there been any 'official' additions?

I found the costmary ID in an old ninja post by E. Velinska. With the new information to interpret the plant's flaring roots as the wings of Saint Michael from Juan_Sali, and having the French name for this plant, Herbe Sainte-Marie, the necessary pieces are in place to see this VMs image as a subtle replication of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary. So, if that interpretation of the illustration is valid, the plant identification is fixed.

It's a situation much like the identification of the VMs critter of f80v. The critter, on its own, had half a dozen identities. Only when the other elements in the illustration were brought into play, could a more solid identification be demonstrated. In that case, the meandering line was named in heraldry as a *nebuly* line. And the nebuly line was shown to function as a cosmic boundary. What animal was associated with a cosmic boundary? An Agnus Dei. Just like BNF Fr. 13096 f18.

Progress is a process of rediscovery.

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It could be a woman's mint.
It makes no sense to interpret some mythology into it now. This would only be true if it were the right plant. You would have to be sure of that. But you can't.
If you look at the drawn leaves, you can see that he distinguishes between start and less toothed leaves.
But the lady's mint has only slightly toothed leaves. It is possible that it is different in one region. But this has to be found.
From the drawing, the leaf looks more like a stinging nettle. (see picture).
But if he has only seen a part of the leaf framework (example), it could also be a tansy.


Science is a dry matter.

To f80. it resembles, but it is still not an animal. It is only one view among many.

However, I can rule out a tansy, as it is quite certain to occur.

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Yes, to be clear, there are two similar plants: costmary (Tanacetum balsamita <T.bal>) and tansy (Tanacetum vulgare <T.vul>) It seems that they are clearly differentiated in the era of C-14 relevance.

Costmary is a proposed ID for VMs f46v. There are also other suggestions. That's all reasonable. It's a discussion. And if there is sufficient agreement regarding a specific identification, it clears the hurdle for "certainty". Hooraah!

But there is more. Besides the actual scientific identification, there is the whole historical herbal aspect and finding the common names, which are many given different languages etc.

And in the illustration of f46v, the wingy roots have attracted some attention, with proposed interpretations: two are political and one religious. Are there others?

Consider the list of possibilities under each of these three categories: 1) scientific ID, 2) common name, 3) root interpretation. Select one item from each category such that the three choices are compatible to make an interrelated combination.

As I see it: 1) T.bal; 2) Herbe Sainte-Marie; 3) Saint Michael's wings > at the Assumption of the Virgin. That's a lot more than just a plant identification. Furthermore, the situation regarding Mariology was not only relevant to the C-14 era, but there are other VMs illustrations with hints and suggestions of similar relevance.