The Voynich Ninja

(31-12-2018, 12:13 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.F33v, Helianthus annuus.

LOL! Wicked you are!  

What about the IDs listed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ? Are they generally accepted ?

(31-12-2018, 08:53 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What about the IDs listed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ? Are they generally accepted ?

You mean the ones in the chart?
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I don't see how anyone could identify You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as Aconitum napellus. The shape of the leaves is completely wrong. The arrangement of the leaves is wrong. The color of the leaves is wrong.

Unfortunately, there are a number of plants that might be represented this way... certain species of spinach, amaranth, coleus, celosia... There is even a species of Salvia (S. viridis) that has reddish and green leaves that are close together on the stalk. It's difficult to pin 3r down to one particular plant.

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I can see that someone might identify 7v as Pulmonaria based on the dot on each leaf, but it's not arranged or colored correctly for pulmonaria. The leaves aren't quite the right shape or arrangement either and they do not characteristically turn red. I think it's more likely that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is pulmonaria. Pulmonaria likes damp places and has rhizomes that spread in thick clumps, and it is conspicuously spotted. However, I'm not completely sure 39r is Pulmonaria because there are a few other plants that might be drawn this way and dots sometimes mean spines along the vein (as in wild lettuce) or hairy leaves.

Instead, I think You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has a very characteristic shape and coloring for a certain group of plants, some of which have spots, and some of which catch dew on their leaves because there's a little hollow in the center of the leaf. These plants are a better match for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. than Pulmonaria:

• Arabis (hirsuta and thaliana) looks like this and has hairy leaves (many of the medieval illustrators used dots to indicate hairs on the leaves or stems).
  
• Whitlow grass (Draba verna, Draba incana, Erophila verna), which is morphologically similar to Arabis, looks very much like the VMS plant and the leaves are hairy, they turn red, and the seed capsules look like the VMS drawing.
  
• Samolus valerandi looks similar to Whitlow grass and has round berry-like seeds.
  
• Saxifraga mutata often has rust-colored spots, reddish leaves in the fall, and the same shape and arrangement of leaves as 7v. Several other Saxifrages also match well.
  
• Androsace looks similar to both Arabis and Androsace, and the leaves turn red. The same is true of certain species of Silene, Limonium and Lewisia.
  

f7v is a good drawing, and I'm pretty sure You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. comes from this group of plants (most of which are found in medieval herbals, but not drawn as well), but they are so similar to each other in real life, many people have trouble telling them apart. Mother Nature enthusiastically replicated this basic model, which makes it difficult to know which one is in the drawing.

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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. doesn't have enough information to cinch it down. It might be Plantain or Lilium or Veratrum or Fritillaria or  Dracaena (all of which have parallel veins and leaf whorls). Without the flowers or seeds, it's hard to know.

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I'm going to withhold my opinion on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. because I need to explain it with pictures. I think there's a better ID than Papaver but many people reflexively seem to think that fat capsules are only found on poppies, I need to explain the alternate possibility with pictures. Maybe it's Papaver, but maybe not.

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I don't think Carthamus tinctorius is the best ID for 54r. It's a pity people don't pay attention to the light-colored almost silvery way the VMS leaves have been painted. The "careful" painter was quite fussy about shades of green. Carthamus tinctorius has fairly dark leaves and the flower heads are quite wide and bushy, which the VMS flowers are not. Also, it has alternate leaves and the VMS leaves are opposite. The lines on the VMS leaf margin might be spines or serrations, but they might alternately be hairs, which would fit if the plant is a silvery color.

There are a few different knapweeds called Dusty Miller that have silvery leaves but the leaves are not the same shape as the VMS drawing, so unfortunately this doesn't work. Some of the origanums have silvery opposite leaves and the flower heads look "scaly" but they don't quite look like the VMS flower. Stachys lanata is silvery, as are some of the Salvias, but the flowerheads are spiked (not like knapweed). Marrubium is also silvery with a somewhat scaly looking flower, but the flower isn't a great match.

I don't have a confident ID for this one, but I think we can get closer than Carthamus tinctorius since there are plants with silvery, slightly hairy opposite leaves, like Dittany, Pardoglossum, and Lychnis coronaria (called Git and Githago in medieval herbals) and even one species of Hypericum (elodes) that match slightly better.

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This is not one of the plants in the chart, it's one I forgot to mention earlier, mostly because it's another one with several possible IDs, but I think You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a good drawing and might be Silene rubra, Lychnis coronaria, Melandrium rubrum (aka Silene dioica, Lychnis dioicha) or one of the Saponarias, that look similar to Melandrium (e.g., Saponaria ocymoides). It might even be Centaurium (umbellatum or erythraea).

Some plants are distinctive, like Ricinus. Others are similar to many other plants and hard to identify with only a drawing.

Quote:Knapweed for f2r seems about as universally accepted as you can get

Of course, when you say that, someone will come along from another universe.

My pet id for f2r is creeping thistle, Cirsium arvense, because of the how the roots are drawn. They are fast growing,  perrenial, edible, and can be used to aid against soil erosion.



Unfortunately the leaves aren't well represented but neither do the drawn leaves accurately depict those of knapweeds that i have seen, and the overall drawing brings to mind a more robust plant. Knapweeds in my area at least tend to be sparse, if the flowers weren't there you would see right through them. Some become tumbleweeds, they don't generally have lasting roots.

My second choice at this point is Rhaponticum repens, Russian knapweed, again for the roots. The leaves are closer but still no cigar.

With regard to the word Centauria, if involved, scientific names for plants were determined much later and so various plants not so named now could have been referred to as such.


As for the plant id I think is most certain, the teasel drawing is pretty good on f43v. I think the leaves were drawn at least partially dried, which is why they are so curly. 



I've lost my database of ids, well, it is somewhere on a dead laptop...but will check out the rest of the list.

(30-12-2018, 08:52 PM)Beatrice Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I think that trying to identify the Voynich plants (or matching them with some real plant species indeed) is an exhausting and fruitless task. The plants may have been "encoded" by using a visual symbolism, hidden from the roots and the stems up to the leaves and flowers. A visual symbolism which could be connected to the Voynichese phonetics. 

I actually think they are real, and intended to feed people if a disaster occurs that wipes out the regular food supply. I see many of them as weeds in my yard, which upon research came over from Europe or Asia and took hold due to their general weediness.

I agree they are not drawn to life, but to general impression, which makes it more difficult to agree on id. 

That's not to say they couldn't also be encoded. I'd like to know how that would work though.

Quote:Linda: My pet id for f2r is creeping thistle, Cirsium arvense, because of the how the roots are drawn.

Cirsium arvense has distinctly pinnatisect and spiny leaves. Plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has lanceolate leaves, so the leaves are not a good match for Cirsium arvense.

Centaurea cyanus, Centaurea montana, Centaurea glastifolia, Centaurea nigra, Centaurea pterocaula, Cyanus cheiranthifolius, and Centaurea jacea (the knapweeds) have lanceolate leaves, and when you flatten the plant, they overlap, like the VMS pic.

f51r could be mandrake.

(02-01-2019, 07:14 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.f51r could be mandrake.

???

How do you see mandrake in this?

Mandrake has a basal whorl, long elliptical leaves and flowers/seed globes with individual stalks—very different from 51r. There are many plants with long carrot-like tubers.

It is primarily the overall impression (composition). It's hard to explain, but the way the plant parts are arranged really gives the impression that it's a mandrake. I'm probably not the only one who sees it that way. In @ReneZ list, the ID is also mandrake.

(02-01-2019, 08:13 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is primarily the overall impression (composition). It's hard to explain, but the way the plant parts are arranged really gives the impression that it's a mandrake. I'm probably not the only one who sees it that way. In @ReneZ list, the ID is also mandrake.

I guess we see it differently.

My overall impression (composition) is that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is an upright plant with lyrate/pinnatisect leaves and a flower spike, like plants in the mustard family (Brassicaceae). Plants in this family frequently have thick roots/tubers (horseradish, turnip, kale, radish, etc.).

To me it does not look like mandrake (right), which is a low plant with a dense, bushy leaf whorl, no central stalk, and short flower stalks:

  

There are also some plants in the Aster family that have lyrate leaves, upright stalks, a thickened tuber, and a branching flower stem, like Lapsana, so the mustard family is not the only possibility, but there are many plants in Brassicaceae that resemble the VMS plant and many have roots like these:



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