The Voynich Ninja

(01-01-2019, 06:16 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:Linda: My pet id for f2r is creeping thistle, Cirsium arvense, because of the how the roots are drawn.

Cirsium arvense has distinctly pinnatisect and spiny leaves. Plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has lanceolate leaves, so the leaves are not a good match for Cirsium arvense.

Centaurea cyanus, Centaurea montana, Centaurea glastifolia, Centaurea nigra, Centaurea pterocaula, Cyanus cheiranthifolius, and Centaurea jacea (the knapweeds) have lanceolate leaves, and when you flatten the plant, they overlap, like the VMS pic.

I hadn't thought about overlapping. It is drawn as though they are fingers of a hand, i thought it might mean don't touch, re the spines. Also the spiny leaves seem to resemble the cluster somewhat. But i'll concede to knapweed of some sort.

(03-01-2019, 03:53 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.....
I guess we see it differently.
....

I had rather a mandrake with this upper part in mind. Although I see the leaves on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as part of the body (flowers as head and root as legs).

Cuba, Johannes von / Breydenbach, Bernhard from: Gart der Gesundheit, Ulm, 1487, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

But as said, I can not rationally justify my assumption in this case.  You have the better arguments here. It's just that you look at it and think: "That's it". I have never had this impression with other plants in the VMS.  So it is not a reasonable, but intuitive ID. Either you see it like this or not.

The leaves are still completely different and there is no central flower stalk as there is on the VMS plant.

I guess we'll just have to disagree. I don't think You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. resembles mandrake.

(03-01-2019, 04:49 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(01-01-2019, 06:16 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:Linda: My pet id for f2r is creeping thistle, Cirsium arvense, because of the how the roots are drawn.

Cirsium arvense has distinctly pinnatisect and spiny leaves. Plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has lanceolate leaves, so the leaves are not a good match for Cirsium arvense.

Centaurea cyanus, Centaurea montana, Centaurea glastifolia, Centaurea nigra, Centaurea pterocaula, Cyanus cheiranthifolius, and Centaurea jacea (the knapweeds) have lanceolate leaves, and when you flatten the plant, they overlap, like the VMS pic.

I hadn't thought about overlapping. It is drawn as though they are fingers of a hand, i thought it might mean don't touch, re the spines. Also the spiny leaves seem to resemble the cluster somewhat. But i'll concede to knapweed of some sort.

agreed for 100% about "creeping thistle"...thanks for your post,you made me stright away translate f2r)).The page said"Men or woman was bitten by scorpion and that person was in pain.The holly doctor at first tried to investigate what kinda scorpiona that was and asked patient before do something.As we know "creeping thistle"works much better then morphine as pain killer and the bitten person after pains was gone gave some answers.He(she) remember when after bite catched an animal and holded for a while.Also after killed that scorpion was afraid from the death.Doctor "shushed" the patient and gave something else to cure him(her) and told while laughing "now you know how to deal with that,now you see the light of my knowledge"

(04-01-2019, 12:28 PM)Aldis Mengelsons Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-01-2019, 04:49 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(01-01-2019, 06:16 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:Linda: My pet id for f2r is creeping thistle, Cirsium arvense, because of the how the roots are drawn.

Cirsium arvense has distinctly pinnatisect and spiny leaves. Plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has lanceolate leaves, so the leaves are not a good match for Cirsium arvense.

Centaurea cyanus, Centaurea montana, Centaurea glastifolia, Centaurea nigra, Centaurea pterocaula, Cyanus cheiranthifolius, and Centaurea jacea (the knapweeds) have lanceolate leaves, and when you flatten the plant, they overlap, like the VMS pic.

I hadn't thought about overlapping. It is drawn as though they are fingers of a hand, i thought it might mean don't touch, re the spines. Also the spiny leaves seem to resemble the cluster somewhat. But i'll concede to knapweed of some sort.

agreed for 100% about "creeping thistle"...thanks for your post,you made me stright away translate f2r)).The page said"Men or woman was bitten by scorpion and that person was in pain.The holly doctor at first tried to investigate what kinda scorpiona that was and asked patient before do something.As we know "creeping thistle"works much better then morphine as pain killer and the bitten person after pains was gone gave some answers.He(she) remember when after bite catched an animal and holded for a while.Also after killed that scorpion was afraid from the death.Doctor "shushed" the patient and gave something else to cure him(her) and told while laughing "now you know how to deal with that,now you see the light of my knowledge"

Interesting. 

I took another look at the leaves drawn and the green paint ends just before the tips, which made me think it was suggesting spines in an abstract sort of way. As if to say there are leaves with multiple points on them.

Have you translated any parts of quire 13?

That logic might work if you look at only one drawing ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ).

But if you look at all the drawings, you find that the illustrator draws other plants with overlapping leaves mostly like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and those with pinnatisect leaves in a completely different way, as in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , which suggests that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. probably does not have pinnatisect leaves.

Okay so we're keeping the knapweed. I'm not looking for absolute consensus, the question is more like.. Which plants are not freaks of nature and could be identified down to a species or two - without having to ignore half of the properties of the drawing. 

I'll add You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Cannabis, it seems like this one has been around for a while and has drawn many to the same conclusion.

For You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. malva I think you make a good case. I understand that its root would have been important, but in the VM it looks almost certainly mnemonic. It's structured more like the water lily root with an animal tail added to it.

You're right about Prunella for f32r, and since it's also among the early ID's it might be safe to add it.

What about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. teasel?

The early ID's in Rene's list go with polygonum, but I find this a strange match since the leaves are more like teasel and other VM drawings are more like polygonum.

I just wanted to say that this is a really useful thread.

Equally useful might be a thread about those plants that nobody has any clue about whatsoever.

(13-01-2019, 08:31 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. teasel?

The early ID's in Rene's list go with polygonum, but I find this a strange match since the leaves are more like teasel and other VM drawings are more like polygonum.

I feel pretty strongly that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (right) might be teasel. It isn't just the way the leaves and branching talks and heads are drawn, but the root is drawn like a big slub of uncarded raw wool. Since natural roots don't look like this, I think the root is meant to be mnemonic.