The Voynich Ninja

Certainly not 3, since to me this looks like a real language and the characters look like letters. From that viewpoint, with these 2 becoming the same character the entropy will decrease even further and that seems unlikely ?

(17-12-2018, 05:08 AM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

If this decoration is not merely a decoration but a real letter, how can I know if this is EVA-p or EVA-t? p vs t
...

I really don't know. It doesn't seem to lean toward one or the other. If it were a pilcrow, the shape wouldn't matter as long as the general idea is understood but I'm not certain they are pilcrows. SOME of them seem to act like pilcrows, but not all of them.

I also think that this initial stands for a letter. I would assume decorations of this type to plain text letters such as f, t, s or i, but not a, o, e or c. Both EVA-t and EVA-p are not open at the top. Maybe the "trick" was done with the rotation, and the decoration / part of the letter should actually go straight down (like other gallows / initials that are decorated with dots or dashes). Then I tend to EVA-t.

(17-12-2018, 05:08 AM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If this decoration is not merely a decoration but a real letter, how can I know if this is EVA-p or EVA-t? p vs t

I think there might be three solutions.

1. These are merely decorations, not letters, so they do not have to be precisely recognized.
   
2. The last stroke, or some other details, of the decoration determines whether it is EVA-p or EVA-t.
   
3. EVA-p and EVA-t are actually one same letter that does not have to be distinguishable.
   

What do you think?

4. EVA-pp

Decorations are merely decorations. The functional part should be recognizable, otherwise the glyph serves no purpose. Ignoring the decorations and the double line for a moment, the glyph starts as p, with a double loop on top, and does not descend to the baseline, so I think it's basically a p.

The double line may indicate a double gallows glyph, like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or stacked gallows: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The choice of representation (stacked or not) may have (unknown) meaning, like 'benched' gallows cPh may be a variant form of pch.

I see no problem with the idea that decorations make reading harder. A reader who knows the language can easily guess the intended character by the context, even if the decoration makes the symbol ambiguous. In particular, ambiguity between only two options is totally acceptable. Consider the amount of ambiguity introduced in some gothic scripts for the sake of elegance (this is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but it gives the idea).

One of the manuscripts mentioned by Ellie (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) exemplifies how decorations interfere with the readability of the script.

(17-12-2018, 05:56 AM)Common_Man Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Certainly not 3, since to me this looks like a real language and the characters look like letters. From that viewpoint, with these 2 becoming the same character the entropy will decrease even further and that seems unlikely ?

That’s very interesting a point of view. I’ve read some articles about entropy, but are not able to completely understand them yet. At least, what I could understand is that the H2-entropy of Voynich Manuscript is lower than any known languages, though I do not understand what conditional entropy is. It seems that lowering more the entropy makes it less like a real (natural) language.

(17-12-2018, 07:02 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I really don't know. It doesn't seem to lean toward one or the other. If it were a pilcrow, the shape wouldn't matter as long as the general idea is understood but I'm not certain they are pilcrows. SOME of them seem to act like pilcrows, but not all of them.

Hi JKP, is it possible that some pilcrows have double duty? For example, pilcrows came from capitula, which was simply a letter C with strokes (like S + strokes = $ or C + strokes = €). Is it possible that some writers omit the initial letter C or similar letters when writing pilcrows? For example, instead of writing:

¶Centaurus ...

They write:

¶entaurus ...

Just like some people nowadays would write Micro$oft or G∞gle for whatever reasons.

(17-12-2018, 10:56 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also think that this initial stands for a letter. I would assume decorations of this type to plain text letters such as f, t, s or i, but not a, o, e or c. Both EVA-t and EVA-p are not open at the top. Maybe the "trick" was done with the rotation, and the decoration / part of the letter should actually go straight down (like other gallows / initials that are decorated with dots or dashes). Then I tend to EVA-t.

Hi bi3mw,

I don’t understand. What do you mean by “such as f, t, s or i, but not a, o, e or c”? I know that EVA-f, t and s are “tall” letters, while EVA-a, o, e and c are “short” letters. But why EVA-i? It is a short letter, isn’t it? Could you please explain in details?

(18-12-2018, 05:55 AM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(17-12-2018, 07:02 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I really don't know. It doesn't seem to lean toward one or the other. If it were a pilcrow, the shape wouldn't matter as long as the general idea is understood but I'm not certain they are pilcrows. SOME of them seem to act like pilcrows, but not all of them.

Hi JKP, is it possible that some pilcrows have double duty? For example, pilcrows came from capitula, which was simply a letter C with strokes (like S + strokes = $ or C + strokes = €). Is it possible that some writers omit the initial letter C or similar letters when writing pilcrows? For example, instead of writing:

¶Centaurus ...

They write:

¶entaurus ...

Just like some people nowadays would write Micro$oft or G∞gle for whatever reasons.

In the VMS, I think we have to assume anything is possible, since we don't know what it is, and the shapes might do double duty... but in medieval texts in general, the distinction between letters and pilcrows/capitula was pretty clear. In fact, they often drew the pilcrows in a different color (often blue or red) to make them stand out.


Statistically, in the VMS, there are many of them at the beginnings of paragraphs. I also noticed the first time I looked at the VMS that EVA-p and EVA-k frequently alternate at the beginning of paragraphs.

I find this interesting because in Latin texts, the "P" shape is often used for pilcrows and the EVA-k shape is often used as an abbreviation for "Item" which is very frequently used at the beginnings of paragraphs or phrases. Also, in Greek, the letter pi is frequently used at the beginnings of paragraphs and phrases to stand for "Peri" (and in Latin, pi is written with "p"-shape). When it means "peri", often an extra loop is added to the top right (to stand for the "e").


Maybe this is a coincidence, and maybe not.

(17-12-2018, 11:36 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(17-12-2018, 05:08 AM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If this decoration is not merely a decoration but a real letter, how can I know if this is EVA-p or EVA-t? p vs t
...

4. EVA-pp

Decorations are merely decorations. The functional part should be recognizable, otherwise the glyph serves no purpose.

...

The double line may indicate a double gallows glyph, like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or stacked gallows: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The choice of representation (stacked or not) may have (unknown) meaning, like 'benched' gallows cPh may be a variant form of pch.

Hi nablator, we might have different definition for decoration. When I said “merely a decoration”, I meant that it is a symbol like a pilcrow or capitulum that are not working as a letter.

But, I understand that you mean the symbol is a letter, or more precisely, two letters: double EVA-p. I did not pay attention to the double lines you mentioned, but yes, it might mean something. Thanks for pointing that out.

(17-12-2018, 11:36 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ignoring the decorations and the double line for a moment, the glyph starts as p, with a double loop on top, and does not descend to the baseline, so I think it's basically a p.

Yes, you are totally right about the decorating part does not descend to the baseline. One of the reasons I was wondering whether it was EVA-p or EVA-t is as you said, and the other reason is that, the decorating part did not go through the left leg, so it probably might also be EVA-t.

(17-12-2018, 12:36 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I see no problem with the idea that decorations make reading harder. A reader who knows the language can easily guess the intended character by the context, even if the decoration makes the symbol ambiguous. In particular, ambiguity between only two options is totally acceptable. Consider the amount of ambiguity introduced in some gothic scripts for the sake of elegance (this is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but it gives the idea).

One of the manuscripts mentioned by Ellie (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) exemplifies how decorations interfere with the readability of the script.

Hi Marco,

Thanks for the awesome examples.

It sounds reasonable that intended character can easily be guessed from only two options, given context.

For the second example, what are those ain aiin aiiin at the end of lines? They seem not to have meanings, just some placeholders.

(18-12-2018, 06:53 AM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....


For the second example, what are those ain aiin aiiin at the end of lines? They seem not to have meanings, just some placeholders.

There are many ideas for what they might be, mostly based on the fact that they are so frequent (e.g., they are grammatical "articles", or conjunctions such as "and", etc.).


I have a list of ideas, one of which is that they resemble Roman numerals (which has apparently been noticed by others long before I knew about the VMS but my interpretation of the shapes is a little different from theirs—same idea, though).

We probably need a separate thread for this (maybe there is one).