(23-07-2018, 11:23 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think that the only places where there is less space is when the text hits a drawing.
With less space I didn't mean that there is not enough space. My point is that the author writes
k instead of
t in a line since this way overlaps with other characters are less likely. This is therefore a layout question.
There is no doubt that the character combinations where the characters would overlap are less likely within the VMS. For instance a gallow glyph following
l is most likely a
k or
f and less likely a
t or
p. An example for a word using lk is
olkchedy and an example for a word using
lp is
olpchedy. For writing
olpchedy extra care is needed to prevent an overlap between
l and p. That glyph combinations like
tk or
lk are rarely used is one of the reasons why the Voynich script looks fluid when writing its "own language".
(23-07-2018, 12:37 AM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One observation was that when k and t are prefixed with o, both become more frequent. My explanation for this observation was that this happens since o + d is normally transformed into o + gallow.
The idea that when
d is prefixed by
o it becomes a gallows is an extraordinary claim! What's your proof?
Quote:One factor is therefore that t is preferred in line initial position and qo- is not. But this is indeed not the only reason. Another reason is that qo- is far more common in Currier B and that most of the qo- words in Currier B are starting with qok-. Words starting with qok- are therefore in general more common then words starting with qot-:
You're simply restating the observation. You can't say that one word is more common than another
because it occurs more often.
Why is
qo more common in Currier B?
Why is
qok more common in Currier B?
Also, what has this got to do with your earlier claim about space and gallows preference? Now you're saying it's not that important? What?
(23-07-2018, 03:22 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (23-07-2018, 11:23 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think that the only places where there is less space is when the text hits a drawing.
With less space I didn't mean that there is not enough space. My point is that the author writes k instead of t in a line since this way overlaps with other characters are less likely. This is therefore a layout question.
There is no doubt that the character combinations where the characters would overlap are less likely within the VMS. For instance a gallow glyph following l is most likely a k or f and less likely a t or p. An example for a word using lk is olkchedy and an example for a word using lp is olpchedy. For writing olpchedy extra care is needed to prevent an overlap between l and p. That glyph combinations like tk or lk are rarely used is one of the reasons why the Voynich script looks fluid when writing its "own language".
Why us
f and
p at all in this situation? Their bent leg is worse, much worse, than the left loop of a
t.
(23-07-2018, 07:26 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The idea that when d is prefixed by o it becomes a gallows is an extraordinary claim! What's your proof?
That this type of relation exists is something the statistic tells us. Beside
dain the word type
okain is frequent and not the word type
odain. Beside
dal the word type
okol is common etc.:
daiin (863) odaiin (60) okaiin (212) otaiin (154)
dain (211) odain (18) okain (144) otain ( 96)
dar (318) odar (24) okar (129) otar (141)
dal (253) odal (13) okal (138) otal (143)
dam ( 98) odam ( 6) okam ( 26) otam ( 47)
dor ( 73) odor ( 8) okor ( 34) otor ( 46)
dol (117) odol ( 2) okol ( 82) otol ( 86)
(23-07-2018, 07:26 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (23-07-2018, 12:37 AM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One observation was that when k and t are prefixed with o, both become more frequent. My explanation for this observation was that this happens since o + d is normally transformed into o + gallow.
The idea that when d is prefixed by o it becomes a gallows is an extraordinary claim! What's your proof?
Quote:One factor is therefore that t is preferred in line initial position and qo- is not. But this is indeed not the only reason. Another reason is that qo- is far more common in Currier B and that most of the qo- words in Currier B are starting with qok-. Words starting with qok- are therefore in general more common then words starting with qot-:
You're simply restating the observation. You can't say that one word is more common than another because it occurs more often.
Why is qo more common in Currier B? Why is qok more common in Currier B?
Also, what has this got to do with your earlier claim about space and gallows preference? Now you're saying it's not that important? What?
I say that word types starting with
qok- occur more frequently in Currier B then word types starting with
qot-. There are multiple word types starting with
qok-. Therefore it is a pattern and not just an observation for a single word.
Why are
chedy and
qokeedy common in Currier B and did not exist in Currier A? Why are
chol and
chor more common in Currier A then in Currier B? The simple answer is that this is the way the VMS works. Everywhere something is more common then somewhere else. This is true for line positions, for pages, for quires and also for Currier A and B.
To explain why
qokal is more frequent then
okal and
qotal is less frequent then
otal Currier B is indeed more important then the preference of
t in line initial position. The overall statistics is summing up all the details. One detail is that
qok- is more frequent in Currier B then
qot-. Another detail is that
t occurs more frequently then expected in line initial position. There are a lot more details. If you wan't to understand all the details you need detailed statistics for line positions, for quires and also for Currier A and B. If you want to understand the big picture behind the VMS you have to look onto the statistics for the whole VMS.
(25-07-2018, 01:36 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.k=t=null or k=t
I thought Torsten went for more of a
Everything=Everything=null
Because if the 2 most frequent gallows letters are similar in meaning, then, I don't think the text has much meaning in it, and it's a work of art..
While I don't believe that k and t are the same, some of the evidence around their distribution could suggest that they're capable of changing from one to the other. Like the final sound in English belief and believe, they're different but linked (in that case voicing). Were o to be a vowel, then the change could be an example of intervocalic voicing/devoicing.
Something which has been discussed in the past, but still too far beyond our ability to prove or adequately evidence.
The statistics give us some important insights. For instance they tell us that at the end of a word the glyphs
a and
o transform into
y:
ar (350) dar (318) odar (24) kar (52) okar (129) qokar (152)
al (260) dal (253) odal (13) kal (23) okal (138) qokal (191)
or (363) dor ( 73) odor ( 8) kor (26) okor ( 34) qokor ( 36)
ol (537) dol (117) odol ( 2) kol (37) okol ( 82) qokol (104)
y (151) dy (270) ody (46) ky (25) oky (102) qoky (147)
But the most important insight is a pattern that exists throughout the entire manuscript. You can find this pattern on every page, every quire and also within Currier A and B. This pattern is that frequent words occur together with similar ones.
The most simple example is the word chedy. This word only exists once for Currier A but it is also t[font=Trebuchet MS]he third most frequent word within the VMS. How is this even possible? This happens since [font=Eva]chedy is the most frequent word within Currier B. And guess what the second most frequent word in Currier B is? This is the word [/font][/font]
Shedy[font=Trebuchet MS]. It should be no surprise that more words similar to [/font]
chedy[font=Trebuchet MS] and [/font]
Shedy[font=Trebuchet MS] exists in Currier B[/font]
[font=Trebuchet MS]:[/font]
chedy (501) lchedy (119) olchedy (38) qolchedy (10)
shedy (426) lshedy ( 42) olshedy (23) qolshedy ( 2)
cheedy ( 95) lcheedy ( 9) olcheedy ( 3) qolcheedy ( 2)
sheedy ( 84) lsheedy ( 6) olsheedy ( 1) qolsheedy ( 2)
This pattern also holds for a quire and even for a single page. For instance the most frequent words in quire 1 are beside daiin the words chol, chor and Shol. Another example are the most frequent words on page f1v. This are the words chol, Shol and dol. On page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the most frequent words are chol, Shol, chor, daiin, chear and dain. ... T[font=Trebuchet MS]he three most frequent words on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are [/font]
[font=Eva]qokeedy[/font]
[font=Trebuchet MS], [/font]
[font=Eva]qokedy[/font]
[font=Trebuchet MS] and [/font]
[font=Eva]okedy[/font]
[font=Trebuchet MS]. All three words occur 16 times. The most frequent words on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are [/font]
qokain[font=Trebuchet MS] and [/font]
okain[font=Trebuchet MS], [/font]
Shey[font=Trebuchet MS] and [/font]
chedy[font=Trebuchet MS] and also [/font]
dain[font=Trebuchet MS] and [/font]
ain[font=Trebuchet MS].[/font]
This pattern also explains the statistics. Similar words occur with similar frequencies since they occur together within the VMS!
The question for the VMS is therefore why did words occur together with similar ones?
(26-07-2018, 10:58 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The question for the VMS is therefore why did words occur together with similar ones?
A possibility is that Voynichese uses a very flexible system (whatever it is), locally made less flexible (on the scope of one or several quires or pages or even a few lines) by variable self-imposed constraints that favor (or restrict the usage of) some combinations of glyphs, thereby creating recognizable "styles" or "languages" or "types" (René Z.) of words. Other local similarities may be explainable simply by convenience, because reusing a familiar subsystem or tactic (as in a one-player game) is easier than inventing a new one.
The case of chedy is interesting... When words like daiin occur in both A and B alike, this occurs more in the medicinal bath, plants of B section, and a few zodiac signs, but not in plants of A.. Need to observe it more..
My first hunch was that the daiin series stood for some kind of ordinal numbers, especially when persian ordinal numbers almost invariably ended in "-um", like yikum, divvum, sivvum, etc.. But that doesnt seem to be the case, and there's no way of knowing.
In Currier A a word type similar to chedy exists. This is the word type cheody. At some point beside cheody also the word chedy occurs and later word types similar to chedy become more and more frequent. In the same way word types similar to chol become less frequent and words starting with the prefix qok- become also more frequent. This shift from Currier A to Currier B allows us to reconstruct the original order for the quires within the VMS:
daiin aiin qokaiin chol cheody chedy Shedy qokeedy word count
Herbal in Currier A 403 33 1 228 8 1 0 0 8087
Pharmaceutical (A) 99 39 2 45 18 1 1 0 2529
Astronomical 23 38 0 8 8 4 0 0 2136
Cosmological 36 56 18 19 7 24 17 4 2691
Herbal in Currier B 72 72 20 13 7 62 35 9 3233
Stars (B) 122 193 114 62 33 190 113 137 10673
Biological (B) 84 32 88 14 0 210 247 153 6911
Another interesting observation is that all the words types in the VMS are related to each other. This means that there is no word type in the VMS that is not part of this network and is in some way related to daiin, ol and chedy. Also the word types daiin, ol and chedy are related to each other:
aiin (469) daiin (863) odaiin (60) chodaiin (44) cheodaiin (11) chedaiin ( 32)
ain ( 89) dain (211) odain (18) chodain ( 9) cheodain ( 8) chedain ( 19)
air ( 74) dair (106) odair ( 5) chodair ( 2) cheodair (--) chedair ( 1)
ar (350) dar (318) odar (24) chodar (14) cheodar ( 4) chedar ( 30)
or (363) dor ( 73) odor ( 8) chodor (--) cheodor ( 2) chedor ( 2)
al (260) dal (253) odal (13) chodal ( 7) cheodal ( 7) chedal ( 24)
ol (537) dol (117) odol ( 2) chodol ( 2) cheodol (--) chedol ( 6)
y (151) dy (270) ody (46) chody (94) cheody (89) chedy (501)
You can interpret the statistics for the VMS as three overlapping networks of similar word types. The three most frequent word types daiin, ol and chedy are the focal points for the three subnetworks. The three overlapping subnetworks build one large network of similar word types. This network of similar word types is connecting all word types in the VMS with each other.
With other word you can't split the network of similar word types by giving by interpreting word types similar to daiin as one word family and word types similar to ol or chedy as another word family. Each word type is related to every other word type in the VMS.