(21-07-2018, 01:23 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An important question for the VMS is if relations between different word types exists. Such relations did indeed exist. See for instance similar word types like chol and Shol. The word type chol occurs 396 times and the word type Shol 186 times. With other words chol is round about twice as frequent as Shol. If we check other similar word pairs like chor/Shor, chal/Shal and char/Shar we get similar results. In all this cases the word type starting with Sh instead of ch is less frequent:
chol (396) chor (219) chal ( 48) char ( 72)
shol (186) shor ( 97) shal ( 15) shar ( 34)
cheol (172) cheor (100) cheal ( 30) chear ( 51)
sheol (114) sheor ( 51) sheal ( 19) shear ( 21)
I remember You are not allowed to view links.
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(22-07-2018, 10:18 AM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I remember You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but couldn't come to a conclusion about them. Any thoughts?
The frequency of a word type is related to the frequency of similar word types. This is a general rule for the VMS. Therefore it doesn't matter where you start. For instance the word type
ar is more frequent then
al and far more then
an. Therefore it is expected that the frequencies for the word types ending in -
ar, -
al behave like the frequencies for the word types
ar,
al and
an:
ar (350) oar ( 16) qoar ( 12)
al (260) oal ( 3) qoal ( 4)
an ( 7) oan (---) qoan (---)
The same is true for word types ending in -dar, -dal and -dan:
dar (318) odar ( 24) qodar ( 11)
dal (253) odal ( 13) qodal ( 7)
dan ( 20) odan ( 2) qodan ( 1)
It is still true for the word types kar, kal and kan but not for the word types ending in -[font=Eva]kar, -kal and -kan. Here the types ending in -[/font]
kal are more frequent then the word types ending in -kar. Note that all the types starting with o- or qo- are more frequent then the types without such a prefix:
kar ( 52) okar (129) qokar (152)
kal ( 23) okal (138) qokal (191)
kan ( 3) okan ( 5) qokan ( 8)
The patterns found for the word types ending in
-tar[font=Trebuchet MS], -[/font]
tal and[font=Trebuchet MS] -[/font]
tan are similar as for the word types ending in[font=Trebuchet MS] -kar[font=Trebuchet MS], -[/font]
kal[font=Trebuchet MS] and -[/font]
kan. Note that [/font]
qotar and qotal are less frequent then otar and otal.
tar ( 43) otar (141) qotar ( 63)
tal ( 20) otal (143) qotal ( 59)
tan ( 1) otan ( 5) qotan ( 2)
You will found the same patterns if you replace
ar with
or,
al with
ol and
an with
on. The only difference is that the
word types ending in -on are not only rare but missing.
or (363) oor ( 3) qoor ( 8)
ol (537) ool (---) qool ( 4)
on (---) oon (---) qoon (---)
dor ( 73) odor ( 8) qodor ( 2)
dol (117) odol ( 2) qodol ( 1)
don (---) odon (---) qodon (---)
Note that for the word types ending in -kor, -kol, -tor[font=Trebuchet MS] and -[/font]
tol[font=Trebuchet MS] also all the types starting with [/font]
o[font=Trebuchet MS]- and [/font]
qo[font=Trebuchet MS]- are more frequent then the types without such a prefix:[/font]
kor ( 26) okor ( 34) qokor ( 36)
kol ( 37) okol ( 82) qokol (104)
kon (---) okon (---) qokon (---)
tor ( 23) otor ( 46) qotor ( 29)
tol ( 48) otol ( 86) qotol ( 47)
ton (---) oton (---) qoton (---)
With the exception of chained words like chotcheytchol there are always similar words. Similar word types occur with similar frequency. It is expected that a word type more similar to the most frequent words daiin, ol or chedy is also more frequent. [font=Trebuchet MS]The conclusion is simple. Similar word types depend on each other. [/font]
(22-07-2018, 01:45 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (22-07-2018, 10:18 AM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I remember You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but couldn't come to a conclusion about them. Any thoughts?
The frequency of a word type is related to the frequency of similar word types.
I'm familiar with the idea. You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. Though my You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. were that relationships between the frequencies of words was not the same across the whole text. There were multiple patterns of relationships which suggested that words behaved differently depending on the glyphs in those words.
As you yourself have noted, word beginning
t and
k tend to become more common when prefixed with
o. However, while the further prefixing of
q makes many words beginning
qok more common again, word beginning
qot become less common. Thus the actual content of words - the presence of
t or
k - is important. There could be several explanations for this, but it suggests that individual glyphs are meaningful because they influence the patterns in the text.
(22-07-2018, 10:18 AM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (21-07-2018, 01:23 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An important question for the VMS is if relations between different word types exists. Such relations did indeed exist. See for instance similar word types like chol and Shol. The word type chol occurs 396 times and the word type Shol 186 times. With other words chol is round about twice as frequent as Shol. If we check other similar word pairs like chor/Shor, chal/Shal and char/Shar we get similar results. In all this cases the word type starting with Sh instead of ch is less frequent:
chol (396) chor (219) chal ( 48) char ( 72)
shol (186) shor ( 97) shal ( 15) shar ( 34)
cheol (172) cheor (100) cheal ( 30) chear ( 51)
sheol (114) sheor ( 51) sheal ( 19) shear ( 21)
I remember You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but couldn't come to a conclusion about them. Any thoughts?
Hi Emma,
I didn't remember that post of yours: thank you for mentioning it! This seems like a very regular pattern. I see that, when you published it, Torsten made the interesting observation that the patterns differ in Currier A and B.
I get these numbers for the first table in your post (they are slightly different from those posted by Torsten in his comment, but they are qualitatively comparable):
Code:
A
chor 177 shor 66 chol 261 shol 114
cheor 59 sheor 26 cheol 71 sheol 37
cheeor 8 sheeor 4 cheeol 3 sheeol 5
char 30 shar 12 chal 15 shal 1
chear 20 shear 5 cheal 7 sheal 2
cheear 0 sheear 2 cheeal 1 sheeal 0
B
chor 31 shor 26 chol 99 shol 60
cheor 32 sheor 24 cheol 90 sheol 68
cheeor 5 sheeor 2 cheeol 6 sheeol 9
char 36 shar 20 chal 27 shal 13
chear 26 shear 15 cheal 22 sheal 12
cheear 1 sheear 0 cheeal 1 sheeal 1
The obvious difference is that these words are considerably rarer in Currier B (also considering that B is about twice the size of A).
In both sets, ch- is consistently more frequent than sh-. In A, ch- is slightly more than the double of sh. In B, ch- is about 1.5 of the count for sh-.
The ratios seem fairly consistent inside each of A and B, but are rather different between A and B, so possibly the phenomenon is easier to study considering A and B separately?
(22-07-2018, 02:25 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As you yourself have noted, word beginning t and k tend to become more common when prefixed with o. However, while the further prefixing of q makes many words beginning qok more common again, word beginning qot become less common. Thus the actual content of words - the presence of t or k - is important. There could be several explanations for this, but it suggests that individual glyphs are meaningful because they influence the patterns in the text.
The usage of
t and
k is indeed an interesting detail.
k is rarely used in line initial position (
k is used 129 out of 10934 times or 1% in line initial position,
t 6%,
p 24 %,
f 8%).
t on the other side is more common in line initial position.
k is also rarely used in word initial position. (1166 word types did contain a
k, but only 119 word types start with a
k. This means that only 10 % of this word types start with
k. t is used in 41% of the cases word initially, p in 70 % and f in 32,5 %).
With other words t and p are preferred in line and word initial position. Additionally p and f are preferred within the first line of a paragraph. And k is preferred within a paragraph, within a line and within a word. Therefore it is expected that words starting with qok- are more common then words starting with qot-.
The reason for this pattern is the shape of the glyphs. k and [font=Eva]f need less space then [/font]
t and p. The additional curve at the top is the reason that t is preferred over k at the beginning of a line or word. There is simply enough space since there is no other character in front to interfere with.
The observation suggests that the glyphs are used differently because of their shape.
Your claim that glyphs are chosen because of their shape requires more evidence than you offer. Much more evidence.
Maybe this was suggested before, but having read Torsten's study and Derek's study, I get the feeling that the only condition both maybe true is that the manuscript either -
1. Has a few proper nouns and facts and the rest is filled in with similar-looking glyphs that gives rise to the meaning-less word patterns of similar words near to each other. (Facts+Gibberish mixed)
2. Has no meaning at all
and someone just trolled the future..
3. Uses a way of encryption where many plaintext words correspond to similar encrypted words (Remember, Vogt proposed that the initial consonant was dropped while giving labels at times, and so this maybe occuring in the manuscript galore, and thus some different words come out as the same)
I'm thinking of using voynichese.com to try and see where all the label-words have been used in the rest of the text (those maybe the paragraphs with meaning), and maybe put those paragraphs together and look for sound-symbol relationships
(22-07-2018, 04:07 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your claim that glyphs are chosen because of their shape requires more evidence than you offer. Much more evidence.
That
k and
t have different shapes is an observation. There is also no doubt that
k and
t are used differently. All I say is that it makes sense to write a smaller glyph if less space is available.
In the same way it makes sense to emphasize the start of a new paragraph by using a gallow letter as the first glyph. Therefore it is an interesting fact that 93 % of the paragraphs start with a gallow glyph. Most times the paragraph initial word without the initial gallow can be found somewhere else in the text. See for instance word types like
por,
pchol,
pchedy etc. Moreover
p and
f mostly occur on the first lines of paragraphs and many paragraph initial gallow glyphs are decorated with additional ornamentation.
(22-07-2018, 05:00 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (22-07-2018, 04:07 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your claim that glyphs are chosen because of their shape requires more evidence than you offer. Much more evidence.
That k and t have different shapes is an observation. There is also no doubt that k and t are used differently. All I say is that it makes sense to write a smaller glyph if less space is available.
In the same way it makes sense to emphasize the start of a new paragraph by using a gallow letter as the first glyph. Therefore it is an interesting fact that 93 % of the paragraphs start with a gallow glyph. Most times the paragraph initial word without the initial gallow can be found somewhere else in the text. See for instance word types like por, pchol, pchedy etc. Moreover p and f mostly occur on the first lines of paragraphs and many paragraph initial gallow glyphs are decorated with additional ornamentation.
Your observation is valid but your hypothesis isn't. The problem you face is that the word statistics for the line starts are often different from the main text (especially in Currier B). It's unsafe to use an observation for a single glyph when there many other differences. Any theory should attempt to account not only for the use of gallow glyphs in this position, but also
d,
y,
s.