05-01-2020, 04:05 PM
05-01-2020, 04:05 PM
05-01-2020, 05:25 PM
The reference to other plants I see is "millefollium"
05-01-2020, 07:55 PM
The second line describes the habitat as the mountains of Capadocié (Cappadocia was historically in Anatolia).
I notice they made a reference to cameleo'te mi'oris (cameleonte minor) in the fourth line. Cameleonte is found in numerous herbals. It was used to describe several thistles and thistle-like plants. Some used it to refer to teasel, some to globe thistle.
But... when they add "minor" (minore, minoris) to these old names, it isn't necessarily the same species. It is often a smaller plant the LOOKS like the "major" one or a plant that is used for similar purposes as the "major" one, but may not be related in other ways (sometimes they don't even look alike).
The root must have been considered important. There's quite a bit of information about it.
Line 9 - I'm not sure what is meant by the first word, but it might be abbreviated "dulcis", in which case it's saying it has a sweet taste and is aromatic.
Line 10 - reference to millefollium minus. Unfortunately, this could mean about 30 different plants. They used "millefolium" to refer to almost any plant with a lot of branching leaves or flowers (plants like yarrow, tansy, and many others) and the addition of the "minus" complicates it even more because it's so frequently an unrelated plant. In the Middle Ages, millefolium was more of a generic term than a specific species. I see if frequently for different plants (usually it's yarrow, but it also refers to many others).
Lines 12 - There are lots of abbreviations, so feel free to correct if I didn't get this completely right:
...omnis languidos curat qui numquam ab aliquo egus?/egregius? rudine possunt libari...
I notice they made a reference to cameleo'te mi'oris (cameleonte minor) in the fourth line. Cameleonte is found in numerous herbals. It was used to describe several thistles and thistle-like plants. Some used it to refer to teasel, some to globe thistle.
But... when they add "minor" (minore, minoris) to these old names, it isn't necessarily the same species. It is often a smaller plant the LOOKS like the "major" one or a plant that is used for similar purposes as the "major" one, but may not be related in other ways (sometimes they don't even look alike).
The root must have been considered important. There's quite a bit of information about it.
Line 9 - I'm not sure what is meant by the first word, but it might be abbreviated "dulcis", in which case it's saying it has a sweet taste and is aromatic.
Line 10 - reference to millefollium minus. Unfortunately, this could mean about 30 different plants. They used "millefolium" to refer to almost any plant with a lot of branching leaves or flowers (plants like yarrow, tansy, and many others) and the addition of the "minus" complicates it even more because it's so frequently an unrelated plant. In the Middle Ages, millefolium was more of a generic term than a specific species. I see if frequently for different plants (usually it's yarrow, but it also refers to many others).
Lines 12 - There are lots of abbreviations, so feel free to correct if I didn't get this completely right:
...omnis languidos curat qui numquam ab aliquo egus?/egregius? rudine possunt libari...
05-01-2020, 08:50 PM
(I love persimmons too.) Overall this doesn't seem to have much similarity to persimmon other than sweet taste and aroma (which is true of many plants). And if I remember correctly, persimmon originated in China and wasn't known in the west until after medieval times (I'm going by memory, I'll have to check on this).
As in the case of cyclamen, sometimes the name changes when a new plant is introduced. For centuries, one of the predominant names for Cyclamen was earth apple (it was also called cyclaminos, orbicularis, and pig's bread), then the potato was introduced to Europe and it became the earth apple (pomme de terre).
Assuming the name in the Trinity herbal has any validity (I don't know whether it does), maybe "kaki" in Greek referred to something different before the persimmon was introduced.
As in the case of cyclamen, sometimes the name changes when a new plant is introduced. For centuries, one of the predominant names for Cyclamen was earth apple (it was also called cyclaminos, orbicularis, and pig's bread), then the potato was introduced to Europe and it became the earth apple (pomme de terre).
Assuming the name in the Trinity herbal has any validity (I don't know whether it does), maybe "kaki" in Greek referred to something different before the persimmon was introduced.
05-01-2020, 09:08 PM
I just checked, there was a species of persimmon in the Mediterranean region now called Diospyros lotus but as far as I can tell, it was not called Kaki by the Greeks, it was called Dios pyros. It has small yellow fruits about the size of a large cherry and large dark green leaves, elliptical. Not at all like the Trinity plant.
20-03-2022, 08:46 PM
22-07-2022, 12:50 PM
(27-04-2017, 05:40 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Collins says a few things about the MS, also suggesting a german origin, and listing it in the same group as the two Plutei herbals, group β .
Apparently it is included in the standard work by Grape-Albers but I haven't seen that.
Harley 4896, which I mentioned above, is listed in different groups by different authors.
I recently found Collins' discussion of Trinity O.2.48 mentioned in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Minta Collins discusses the ms at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of "Medieval Herbals. The Illustrative Traditions" (2000). If I understand correctly, she believes that the ms was made in Germany and derives from a hypothetical edition of the Pseudo-Apuleius also made in Germany and commissioned by Fredrick II. Orofino does not seem to be convinced of Collins' idea, but I don't know if (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) she believes the ms was made in Southern Italy, instead of being indirectly derived from Southern Italian sources that would have been accessible to Frederick II.
22-07-2022, 02:08 PM
(22-07-2022, 12:50 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.f I understand correctly, she believes that the ms was made in Germany and derives from a hypothetical edition of the Pseudo-Apuleius also made in Germany and commissioned by Fredrick II.Hi, Marko, I just came across this thread and I was amazed at the similarity of script in the manuscript you are discussing with the one that was created in the Cistercian monastery at Bistra, Slovenia. At the time, this monastery was one of the four Charterhouses that united into Fraternity of Slovenian Charterhouses.
Reading up on the research done on this form, I came across some things that might be of interest to you:
1. the name of 'gatara' for catnip - might be 'sectarian' word for 'sleeping Cathars).
2. the word babari could be Slovenian spelling for Bavari (v and b were often mixed-up, which still makes a distinction between Venezia-Benetke)
3. the stones mentioned in the roots could be a reference to the 'Word of God' - There is a passage in Rossetti's book on the Antipapal Spirit, in which he mentions 'gentle language of flowers' and the 100 tales (I suppose a reference to Boccaccio's Decameron), one of which deals with Prester John giving Emperor Frederic a magic Stone. Rossetti also explain the way humanistic alchemical symbolism works. The strange names of the flowers might have been used for symbolic esoteric communication. When patareni, Cathars and other 'heretics' were persecuted by the Roman Church, many found refuge in the Kingdom of Slavonia and Bosnia, where persecution was not as vigorous at first, because the Counts of Celje were thorn between Roman and Orthodox religion, and some members were also patareni (or Bosnian Bogomils as they were called on the Balkans)
4. The manuscripts with similar scripts was in Carniola, which was a Austrian duchy, but under Aquileian religious authority. There was a lot of Italian influence, besides Bavarian, in Carniola and Styria (Slovenia), such as Viridis Visconte residing in Stična, Slovenians studying in Padua and transmitting humanistic ideas as professors at the Vienna University (I wrote an article on that in my last post).
5. I just read in a recently published Slovenian scholarly journal that there was some Slovenian names of plants in a Latin herbal manuscript.
6. All those exotic names and places mentioned, and the connection to the Greek, Arabic,Tartars/Tatars, could be understand by way of the connection between Austria and Cilicia (Armenia).
Do you still have the names of those plants that did not make sense to you? I might not be able to translate them, but I could try to see if they are Slovenian or Slavic.