The Voynich Ninja

(07-01-2017, 06:42 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There's 10 total beginning with q.  4 of these are from the word column on 66r which are not really "labels" at all.  There are only two on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (your transcription seems to be in error), and I suspect that these are not labels either but complete lines of text that have been broken up by the fluid streams.  I also think the occurrence of qkol on f89r1 is probably a y connected with a ligature, but even if we want to allow 6 (or even 10) labels containing q that's obviously much rarer than in the main body of the text.  And just look at how many of the labels start with o.  Obviously that didn't occur by random chance and therefore needs to be explained somehow.

Yeah this I also agree with that observation: when q is found in labels it tends to be "labels" that could potentially actually be broken up parts of a longer text.

(07-01-2017, 08:55 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your pattern for japanese is not like the network of similar words for the VMS.  I didn't know for a grammatical network connecting all words used in a language and I didn't know of a natural language where similar words occur with similar frequencies.

The basic pattern is still similar and I think it's an indication that we're looking at a similar phenomenon. I don't disagree that the VMS text is atypical in that a very large fraction of words appear to be compounds of basic elements, but I also don't see any real reason to think that there couldn't be a natural language that works like this.

Quote:Sam G Wrote:
The basic pattern is still similar and I think it's an indication that we're looking at a similar phenomenon. I don't disagree that the VMS text is atypical in that a very large fraction of words appear to be compounds of basic elements, but I also don't see any real reason to think that there couldn't be a natural language that works like this.

Which kind of similar phenomenon? Did you really think that all this similar words are only different grammatical forms for a single word?

It is still possible to extend the grid. He now contains over 33 % of the words in the VMS. Since the grid is now very large I have splitted him into two parts. 
Note: At the end of a word an a is normally written as y. For this reason words like cheda (1) are rare for the VMS.
aiin (469) daiin (863) odaiin (60) okaiin (212) qokaiin (262) kaiin (65) taiin (42) otaiin (154) qotaiin (79) 
ain  ( 89) dain  (211) odain  (18) okain  (144) qokain  (279) kain  (48) tain  (16) otain  ( 96) qotain  (64) 
air  ( 74) dair  (106) odair  ( 5) okair  ( 22) qokair  ( 17) kair  (14) tair  (13) otair  ( 21) qotair  ( 6) 
ar   (350) dar   (318) odar   (24) okar   (129) qokar   (152) kar   (52) tar   (43) otar   (141) qotar   (63) 
al   (260) dal   (253) odal   (13) okal   (138) qokal   (191) kal   (23) tal   (20) otal   (143) qotal   (59) 
am   ( 88) dam   ( 98) odam   ( 6) okam   ( 26) qokam   ( 25) kam   ( 9) tam   (--) otam   ( 47) qotam   (12) 
or   (363) dor   ( 73) odor   ( 8) okor   ( 34) qokor   ( 36) kor   (26) tor   (23) otor   ( 46) qotor   (29) 
ol   (537) dol   (117) odol   ( 2) okol   ( 82) qokol   (104) kol   (37) tol   (48) otol   ( 86) qotol   (47) 
y    (151) dy    (270) ody    (46) oky    (102) qoky    (147) ky    (25) ty    (16) oty    (115) qoty    (87) 
ey   (  1) dey   (  1) odey   ( 1) okey   ( 63) qokey   (107) key   (14) tey   (11) otey   ( 57) qotey   (24) 
eey  (  3) deey  (  7) odeey  ( 2) okeey  (177) qokeey  (308) keey  (44) teey  (20) oteey  (140) qoteey  (42) 

cthaiin ( 13) ckhaiin ( 3) chkaiin (18) chtaiin ( 4) chaiin ( 45) chdaiin ( 16) chodaiin (44) cheodaiin (11) chedaiin ( 32)
cthain  (  4) ckhain  ( 1) chkain  (12) chtain  ( 3) chain  ( 18) chdain  (  9) chodain  ( 9) cheodain  ( 8) chedain  ( 19)
cthair  (---) ckhair  (--) chkair  (--) chtair  ( 1) chair  (  1) chdair  (  2) chodair  ( 2) cheodair  (--) chedair  (  1)
cthar   ( 20) ckhar   ( 3) chkar   (12) chtar   ( 3) char   ( 72) chdar   ( 20) chodar   (14) cheodar   ( 4) chedar   ( 30)
cthal   (  7) ckhal   ( 4) chkal   (13) chtal   ( 6) chal   ( 48) chdal   ( 19) chodal   ( 7) cheodal   ( 7) chedal   ( 24)
ctham   (  1) ckham   ( 3) chkam   ( 3) chtam   ( 1) cham   ( 20) chdam   ( 10) chodam   ( 1) cheodam   ( 2) chedam   (  6)
cthor   ( 45) ckhor   ( 9) chkor   ( 1) chtor   ( 2) chor   (219) chdor   (  8) chodor   (--) cheodor   ( 2) chedor   (  2)
cthol   ( 60) ckhol   (22) chkol   ( 3) chtol   ( 5) chol   (396) chdol   (  2) chodol   ( 2) cheodol   (--) chedol   (  6)
cthy    (111) ckhy    (39) chky    (18) chty    (13) chy    (155) chdy    (150) chody    (94) cheody    (89) chedy    (501)
cthey   ( 50) ckhey   (32) chkey   ( 8) chtey   ( 1) chey   (311) chdey   (---) chodey   ( 2) cheodey   (--) chedey   (  1)
ctheey  ( 13) ckheey  (11) chkeey  (13) chteey  ( 1) cheey  (174) chdeey  (  1) chodeey  (--) cheodeey  ( 1) chedeey  (  1)

The purpose for a natural language is to transport information. For this purpose it is important to prevent misunderstandings. It is very hard to distinguish between different pieces of information if everything looks alike. The intention for the system in the VMS was obviously not to make it easy to transport information. Therefore it did not match to human language in one of its main aspects.

(08-01-2017, 03:24 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:Sam G Wrote:
The basic pattern is still similar and I think it's an indication that we're looking at a similar phenomenon. I don't disagree that the VMS text is atypical in that a very large fraction of words appear to be compounds of basic elements, but I also don't see any real reason to think that there couldn't be a natural language that works like this.

Which kind of similar phenomenon? Did you really think that all this similar words are only different grammatical forms for a single word?

No, they could be different words.  The "roots" and "suffixes" could each have a meaning or function that combine somehow when they are united.  I still think it's similar to what we see in natural languages, just even more systematic and inclusive of seemingly all the words.

Quote:The purpose for a natural language is to transport information. For this purpose it is important to prevent misunderstandings. It is very hard to distinguish between different pieces of information if everything looks alike. The intention for the system in the VMS was obviously not to make it easy to transport information. Therefore it did not match to human language in one of its main aspects.

Well, it definitely looks like it's encoding information of some kind, whether it's a natural human language or something more artificial.  I don't see any reason to assume that it would be confusing to someone who understands it.

Anyway, I find these tables quite interesting and useful.  Any chance you'd be willing to expand them further to include:

- Suffixes: eol, eor, eody, o, es, ees, os, eos

- Roots: yk, yt, ykch, ytch, olk, lk, olkch, lkch, chckh, chcth, shckh, shcth, chockh, checkh, chocth, checth, shockh, sheckh, shocth, shecth, chkch, chtch, shkch, shtch, shksh, shtsh, chksh, chtsh

- Also a table of words beginning with "sh" corresponding to the table containing "ch"

What percentage of words would we have covered with all of those?

@ Torsten

I agree the method of conveying information does not meet a standard language.  Yet when numbers are applied this language seems to be coming through as in Middle English.  daiin maybe associated with the word, "lasse" in Middle English.  I know my system uses numbers so the words with numbers in the VMS can be entirely different but this word might have a consistent theme to it, because of the many nymphs. 

The pattern you are seeing could be merely words from which the VMS author could encipher many words with different meanings along with different numbers.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

daiin

Quote:Sam G Wrote:
Anyway, I find these tables quite interesting and useful.  Any chance you'd be willing to expand them further to include:

I have already published a grid containing all words occurring at least 4 times (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

Quote:Sam G Wrote:
Also a table of words beginning with "sh" corresponding to the table containing "ch"

shkaiin ( 4) shtaiin ( 1) shaiin ( 20) shdaiin (  3) shodaiin (23) sheodaiin ( 5) shedaiin ( 15)
shkain  ( 3) shtain  (--) shain  (  8) shdain  (---) shodain  ( 5) sheodain  (--) shedain  ( 11)
shkair  ( 2) shtair  (--) shair  (  1) shdair  (  2) shodair  (--) sheodair  (--) shedair  (  1)
shkar   ( 2) shtar   ( 1) shar   ( 34) shdar   (  9) shodar   (--) sheodar   ( 1) shedar   (  7)
shkal   ( 1) shtal   ( 3) shal   ( 15) shdal   (  4) shodal   ( 3) sheodal   ( 4) shedal   ( 11)
shkam   (--) shtam   (--) sham   (  7) shdam   (  1) shodam   ( 1) sheodam   (--) shedam   (  2)
shkor   (--) shtor   ( 1) shor   ( 97) shdor   (  1) shodor   ( 1) sheodor   (--) shedor   (  1)
shkol   ( 2) shtol   ( 1) shol   (186) shdol   (  1) shodol   ( 3) sheodol   ( 1) shedol   (  1)
shky    (13) shty    ( 4) shy    (104) shdy    ( 46) shody    (55) sheody    (50) shedy    (426)
shkey   ( 1) shtey   ( 1) shey   (283) shdey   (---) shodey   (--) sheodey   (--) shedey   (  1)
shkeey  ( 3) shteey  (--) sheey  (144) shdeey  (---) shodeey  (--) sheodeey  (--) shedeey  (---)

Quote:Sam G Wrote:
What percentage of words would we have covered with all of those?

Without 'Sh'-words 12775 out of 38000 words (33,6 %). With 'Sh'-words 14411 out of 38000 words (38 %).

@ Torsten

Quote:The average length of a glyph group is higher in pages written in Currier B. For paragraphs on pages written in Currier A the average word length is 4.9, whereas for pages in Currier B it is 5.2. As graph 18 shows, this is a result of the circumstance that groups containing six or seven glyphs are more frequent in Currier B.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I believe I can answer this phenomenon.  This relates to the progression of the English Language during the 15th Century and the VMS may have been written over a long period of years.  I believe it was one scribe and the addition as in glyph's were where numbers changed for words.  These stats are from Chaucer.

I'm willing to bet if you look at my cipher that, the words are longer, because numbers associated with the English language grew in length so maybe you will see an increase and even large number glyph associations.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

@ Torsten

One other idea would be to look at how the number of benched gallows flowed through the text as in an increased frequency between Currier A and B.

@ Torsten

Quote:1 Lack of corrections One important observation for the VMS is the lack of corrections [see Reddy: p. 79]. Did the scribe not make any mistakes? 

One feature of the script used for the VMS is that in many cases one additional quill stroke is enough to change a glyph into another one. For instance, it would easily be possible to change 1 into 2 or c into s.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

This addition is + addition! Precisely but as in numbers too not only a missing glyph.

@ Finally Torsten

Quote:It is to be expected that the scribe would run out of space at the end of a line. Therefore it is remarkable that the end of the lines nearly always fit into the available space. In addition, on many pages the text is placed around illustrations (see for instance figure 1 on p. 1). In such cases, the available space was also limited. Therefore it would be no surprise if sometimes the last glyphs in a line were squeezed into the available space. However, there are no such crowded places in the VMS. This behavior was described by Currier in 1976 as follows:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

For me and all of you this should be obvious:

This relates to simple math you can use glyph s which add up for a word and I also believe that the most infrequent glyph's at times maybe associated with what is described in the quote above.