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Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
- Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
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RE: Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
-JKP- > 01-10-2016, 10:12 PM
My feeling is that
- if the text is meaningful and at least somewhat narrative in a few places,
- if the images relate to the text,
- if the text is sufficiently long,
- if a reasonable estimate of the date of creation can be determined (within a century or so), and
- if the system is reasonably consistent (this is a pretty big condition)
- if the text is meaningful and at least somewhat narrative in a few places,
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RE: Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
Diane > 02-10-2016, 05:58 AM
Thomas,
The botanical imagery may confuse modern viewers; I see no reason why it should have presented a problem for the original enunciator and his peers. It's simply a method for condensing information about given groups of plants - from what I've found, each group is classed by similar form and purpose, and being found together in a particular region.
Composite plant imagery was very common, even in the Mediterranean, before Dioscorides' time. If you imagine each as a still-life sans vase, it should give a sense of the informing idea. -
RE: Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
stellar > 02-10-2016, 08:43 AM
(01-10-2016, 09:25 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This morning I was reading the wiki about the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Like some other alphabets, it has interesting properties, like Voynich-resembling glyphs and a non-decimal system for writing numbers - but that is not the subject of this thread. It was the following sentence that made me wonder:
Quote:Examples of Palmyrene inscriptions were printed as far back as 1616 but accurate copies of Palmyrene/Greek bilingual inscriptions were not available until 1756. The Palmyrene alphabet was deciphered in the 1750s, literally overnight, by Abbé Jean-Jacques Barthélemy using these new, accurate copies of bilingual inscriptions.
If Voynichese is the result of enciphering in the strictest sense, it is just a matter of finding the key. Like "oh the vowels have just been left out and then you can convert it to Latin". This can be found, if studied long enough.
However, what if Voynichese is a historically developed writing system that is only known from this one source? For example, Byblos script is known from a dozen of inscriptions, and as yet it remains undeciphered. So if Voynichese is not a "find the key" cipher - is it possible to ever understand it without external sources like a bilingual document?
You have seen my work here and I firmly believe that you have to construct your own cipher. Many attempts at this in the past for the MS-408 without results have been tried. The possibility I think of a Rosetta stone’s existence maybe in John Dee’s Library, but that would require leafing through every page of all his books in search of some note. If this has been done, with nothing found; then the Rosetta stone for the Voynich Manuscript may have been lost when some of his books were stolen. Frequency analysis of just about every language has been tried in an attempt to crack the Voynich Manuscript with null results. Even Stephen Bax’s method should be scrutinized more, because of his syllabic and mnemonic approach based on first using the text of a plant in f2r.
To me it’s a numbers game and I have been met with huge criticism here for this, but the Voynich now screams out with numbers. Yes I have tried Italian and Latin with null results. The reason why languages don’t work is just the fact that it is in numbers and sentence structure never occurs, because verbs, adjectives nouns, pronouns and prepositions don’t come together correctly for any language due to the fact of glyph arrangement. That is not to say there is no structure, but all these years the approach may have concluded it was not in numerology. On top of this mess of running concurrent words doubles and triples and weird glyph arrangements with some sentences that have the same glyph openings for sentences in many rows or columns. How many token endings with an 89 will wake you guys up? (o=6, 9=9, 8=8, 4=4, e=5, and a=1)
o984ea
These number labels are familiar in Pythagorean Numerology. If analyses were done even without the, “c” I bet these numbers have the highest total combined against the text. Unfortunately without picture labels its near impossible to decipher using my method and I know the ieuan Dee signature looks contrived but I doubt it.
The Welsh words totaling around 64 which I decoded using numerology further backs up my claim for the use of numerology. I think some people here should investigate my method in a serious fashion looking in the text for labels I have not hit yet if any. We are running out of labels for my method.
Thank you for this post Koen J
![[Image: numerologychart16.jpg?w=840]](https://voynichnumerology.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/numerologychart16.jpg?w=840)
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RE: Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
-JKP- > 02-10-2016, 03:37 PM
(02-10-2016, 08:43 AM)stellar... Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
To me it’s a numbers game and I have been met with huge criticism here for this, but the Voynich now screams out with numbers. Yes I have tried Italian and Latin with null results.
...
I haven't seen any huge criticism for using numbers. Numbers is a good avenue to pursue, as good as any.
The criticism is for not being clear about your methodology, being inconsistent in your methodology (switching from one system to another without letting us know), and for not sufficiently researching how the Welsh did numerology in the 15th century, along with other big holes in the research.
How do you know they used the same numerology system as the 21st-century software purportedly using a Pythagorean system that you cribbed off the Internet? Those who have researched Celtic numerology are reporting a different system. Also, did you know that the value for Pi was different in those days and was somewhat regionally dependent as well? -
RE: Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
stellar > 02-10-2016, 04:15 PM
(02-10-2016, 03:37 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(02-10-2016, 08:43 AM)stellar... Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
To me it’s a numbers game and I have been met with huge criticism here for this, but the Voynich now screams out with numbers. Yes I have tried Italian and Latin with null results.
...
I haven't seen any huge criticism for using numbers. Numbers is a good avenue to pursue, as good as any.
The criticism is for not being clear about your methodology, being inconsistent in your methodology (switching from one system to another without letting us know), and for not sufficiently researching how the Welsh did numerology in the 15th century, along with other big holes in the research.
How do you know they used the same numerology system as the 21st-century software purportedly using a Pythagorean system that you cribbed off the Internet? Those who have researched Celtic numerology are reporting a different system. Also, did you know that the value for Pi was different in those days and was somewhat regionally dependent as well?
JKP,
I have not switched my system, you just assume that, because we have disagreed on a couple glyph's and its in the 16th century which John Dee authored the VMS. Ieuan Dee was a known numerologist and genius of his time in just about every science subject. John Dee's father was Welsh and I'm willing to bet John knew the language well. Its clear that John Dee would use Pythagorean numerology with Welsh as a terrific cipher and I have decoded 65 proper names in Welsh using the Voynich Pythagorean Welsh Cipher.
Oh and the Egyptians Incorporated Pi into the Pyramids and so I'm quite sure Dee knew the value of Pi up to 15 digits.
Quote:[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lets start with Pythagoras: Greek philosopher, mathematician, mystic and scientist. He is considered the Father of Math. Remember the Pythagorean theorem from geometry class? Trying to figure the length of a side of a right triangle? The Babylonians had their hand in it as well, however our dear friend Pythagoras was credited with it, although not proved until after he passed. He contributed greatly to, not only modern-day mathematics, but astrology, music, philosophy, science and of course….NUMEROLOGY!
“Know thyself, then thou shalt know the universe and God” was his constitution. The only requirement to be a student of this great teacher, was a deep and sincere longing to learn and discover the meaning of life and of love through personal independence, and to help free the soul of religious and political confinements. A great man if you ask me!
Pythagoras developed the concept that every number, no matter how large or how many digits, can always be reduced down to one single digit and each single digit 1-9 has a specific vibrational frequency, or energy, as I often refer to it. Our favorite Greek philosopher believed that numbers are the measure of form and energy in the world and that the numbers 1 through 9 are symbolic representations of stages in the human life cycle.[/font]
Lets now go forward to the early 1900’s. Mrs. L. Dow Balliett, who was a very influential speaker in the New Age Thought Movement, took on Pythagoras’ theories and is credited with bringing Numerology to the Western world. Her teachings were spiritual in nature, and focused on allowing people to realize themselves as divine beings. Being the enigmatic woman that she was, she became a profound influence over many including a Dr. Julia Seton, who is the mother of Dr. Juno Jordan. Now, Dr. Julia Seton is responsible for turning the “study of numbers” into what we call it today….NUMEROLOGY!
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RE: Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
Oocephalus > 02-10-2016, 04:48 PM
Stellar, I think the problem with your method is that one can "prove" almost anything with it, as there are so many words corresponding to each numeral under your system that one can get it to spell out almost anything one wants. I even managed to "prove" that you wrote the manuscript yourself! This is line five of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the last page).
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RE: Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
-JKP- > 02-10-2016, 05:49 PM
Stellar, as I said before, different values of Pi were used by different regions and times.
For example, the Egyptians you cited as an example used 3.1605, which is not the number you are showing in your numerology interpretations. In the 15th century there were various interpretations of Pi, as well.
You are assuming John Dee wrote this.
You are assuming he knew Welsh even though he was born in a London suburb and lived most of his life in the vicinity of London and eastern Europe.
You are assuming he used a Pythagorean numerology system rather than a typical Celtic/Welsh system.
You are piling one assumption on top of another.
I believe Dee would have been very interested in something like the VMS, but not so much for his plant content (he never showed much interest in plants, he was more interested in the occult, in alchemy, and in math). He sought out books with possible alchemical content. He kept voluminous diaries and never mentioned anything like the VMS. There are a few mentions of the Enochian book he developed together with Talbot ("Kelley") and a few references to Kelley's Book of Dunstan but no definite pointer to the VMS. Might he have seen it? Yes, if it was in Rudolph's collection at the time Dee was in Prague, it's somewhat possible that he did, as Rudolph apparently gave access to his "curiosities" to certain people. But if he did, he didn't mention it in his diaries and apparently he spent most of his time with other alchemists, not in Rudolph's presence and may only have met the emperor on a couple of occasions.
I don't know why you keep insisting it was done by John Dee when Kelley (who lived much closer to Wales and was already interested in the occult and numerology before he started working with Dee) is more known for this kind of thing. Shouldn't you be considering both possibilities (along with other possibilities)?
And thank you Oocephalus for that numerology example. -
RE: Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
ThomasCoon > 03-10-2016, 01:24 AM
(02-10-2016, 05:58 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thomas,
The botanical imagery may confuse modern viewers; I see no reason why it should have presented a problem for the original enunciator and his peers. It's simply a method for condensing information about given groups of plants - from what I've found, each group is classed by similar form and purpose, and being found together in a particular region.
Composite plant imagery was very common, even in the Mediterranean, before Dioscorides' time. If you imagine each as a still-life sans vase, it should give a sense of the informing idea.
Thanks Diane - that's good to know. I was not aware of this practice of condensing information. -
RE: Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
Diane > 04-10-2016, 07:53 AM
For the linguists -
About 'rosetta stones' - am I mistaken in thinking that Tocharian was an unknown script in an unknown language when the fragments were found by Aurel Stein?
Does the way it was approached, and its basics so soon sorted, offer any hope for us?
D. -
RE: Can it be done without a "Rosetta Stone"?
Sam G > 04-10-2016, 02:51 PM
(04-10-2016, 07:53 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For the linguists -
About 'rosetta stones' - am I mistaken in thinking that Tocharian was an unknown script in an unknown language when the fragments were found by Aurel Stein?
The language was unknown, but the script was not - it was a form of Brahmi script. And many of the texts were translations of Buddhist scriptures, so they had bilingual texts to work with. And Tocharian is an Indo-European language, so it does have some similarities in terms of vocabulary and grammar with other IE languages.
Quote:Does the way it was approached, and its basics so soon sorted, offer any hope for us?
Probably not.