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Voynichese Phonotactics
RE: Voynichese Phonotactics

-JKP- > 25-09-2016, 02:04 AM

(25-09-2016, 12:09 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I don't see why this should be true. The Wikipedia page on syllabic consonants provides counterexamples in English: A syllabic consonant or vocalic consonant is a consonant which either forms a syllable on its own, like the m, n and l in the English words rhythm, button and bottle... In both "rhythm" and "button" you have a syllabic nasal following a consonant.

...

I don't understand why Wikipedia would use button as an example, alongside rhythm and bottle. Rhythm is a good example, but "button" has the vowel in front of it. The consonant "n" isn't syllabic on its own.
RE: Voynichese Phonotactics

Sam G > 25-09-2016, 02:05 AM

(25-09-2016, 12:09 AM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Sam G Wrote:That's admittedly possible, but eo and eeo are fairly rare as word endings.

They are much rarer than ey and eey, but the question is whether they are valid. If we're willing to accept that o is a vowel, and that y can be a vowel, why can we not accept they are both vowels in the same environment?

It's possible, but there are also words ending in es and ees so interpreting y as a consonant in this context also makes sense (assuming we regard s as a consonant).

Also there are words ending in oy, which are admittedly very rare but this would also point to y functioning as a consonant (in parallel with common o-endings ol and or).

Though again, my main reason for thinking that y is a syllabic consonant is that while on the one hand it seems to usually behave as a vowel, on the other hand it seems to be part of a coherent system along with other letters that appear to be consonants, as I briefly outlined here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:
Quote:Well, I did not know that, but it's not a problem if y and l are syllabic consonants representing liquids.

Can I ask for some examples or arguments for why l is syllabic? I know that lk appears, but I doubt l is syllabic here. It could be a digraph or even perfectly reasonable as part of a cluster.

A word like lkaiin would seem to parallel ykaiin, would it not? And again there's the fact that y and l seem to be related generally.

Quote:
Quote:I don't see why this should be true. The Wikipedia page on syllabic consonants provides counterexamples in English: A syllabic consonant or vocalic consonant is a consonant which either forms a syllable on its own, like the m, n and l in the English words rhythm, button and bottle... In both "rhythm" and "button" you have a syllabic nasal following a consonant.

These only work because the following nasal is its own syllable. Onset clusters of obstruent + nasal are less common typically. Voynichese could have them but I would want to explore the alternatives first.

What I'm saying is that the nasal could be its own syllable in Voynichese, too. So a word like okchdy could be a three-syllable word, as we might also interpret okeedy to be.

And I'm definitely not certain that ch and Sh are nasals. It's just something that seems possible. Actually the main problem I see with it is that it's not clear what we would then make of the fact that ch can combine with gallows letters like k to form cKh. Assuming the gallows letters are stops and/or affricates, is there such a thing as a "nasalized stop" or a "nasalized affricate"?

Or conversely, if we take cKh to be something like an aspirated or glottalized form of k, as seems possible, then the most straightforward interpretation of ch would seem to be as some kind of fricative. Then is there such a thing as a "syllabic fricative"?

(25-09-2016, 02:04 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(25-09-2016, 12:09 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I don't see why this should be true. The Wikipedia page on syllabic consonants provides counterexamples in English: A syllabic consonant or vocalic consonant is a consonant which either forms a syllable on its own, like the m, n and l in the English words rhythm, button and bottle... In both "rhythm" and "button" you have a syllabic nasal following a consonant.

...

I don't understand why Wikipedia would use button as an example, alongside rhythm and bottle. Rhythm is a good example, but "button" has the vowel in front of it. The consonant "n" isn't syllabic on its own.

It's talking about how these words are pronounced, not how they're spelled. Phonetically the second syllable of "button" doesn't contain a vowel, it's just a syllabic "n".
RE: Voynichese Phonotactics

Diane > 25-09-2016, 12:40 PM

Emma,
re 'that's what [Jacques] Guy said'... it's true that his "proto-Mandarin" storyline began as a joke, but it didn't end there.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

To save everyone following the link, here's the important bit.

What you will not find, however, is what followed the Chinese canard. In 1997, a new member of our Voynich interest group, Jorge Stolfi, a professor of computer science, came up with statistical evidence that the structure of "Voynichese" was very similar to that of Mandarin Chinese. Highly sceptical, I set about finding flaws in his data or his reasoning. I could fault neither, and I wrote as much, just as emphatically as I had confessed to my Chinese hoax. There was then a lively exchange lasting some two years, with evidence mounting for the Chinese-like structure of Voynichese.
RE: Voynichese Phonotactics

Emma May Smith > 25-09-2016, 12:56 PM

Sam, first off, I'm happy we're having this conversation. I think it must be the most sustained discussion of Voynich phonology in a long time.

(25-09-2016, 02:05 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's possible, but there are also words ending in es and ees so interpreting y as a consonant in this context also makes sense (assuming we regard s as a consonant).

Also there are words ending in oy, which are admittedly very rare but this would also point to y functioning as a consonant (in parallel with common o-endings ol and or).

Where do words ending eos and eeos fit in with this? My own hypothesis is that y disappears in many internal positions and transforms into a in others. There are plenty of cases in internal y, but maybe fewer than we would expect.

Thus:
ey is paired to eo
es is paired to eos
edy is paired to eody
al is paired to ol
ar is paired to or
chd is paired to chod
chk is paired to chok
oy is paired to oa

...and so on through various permutations. If we agree that o is a vowel, then by considering y as a vowel with three different ways of being expressed we can achieve a fairly good match. These two vowels don't occur at the same frequencies in every case, but they do appear to be functionally equivalent, fulfilling the same kinds of role in the text.

Quote:A word like lkaiin would seem to parallel ykaiin, would it not? And again there's the fact that y and l seem to be related generally.

I would assume ykaiin parallels okaiin.

Some stats:
okaiin (212 tokens) is paired with ykaiin (45 tokens)
otaiin (154 tokens) is paired with ytaiin (43 tokens)
olkaiin (31 tokens) is paired with alkaiin (5 tokens)
oky (102 tokens) is paired with yky (18 tokens)
oty (115 tokens) is paired with yty (24 tokens)
olky (22 tokens) is paired with alky (3 tokens)

In each case the o form is more common than the y form.
RE: Voynichese Phonotactics

-JKP- > 25-09-2016, 02:02 PM

(25-09-2016, 02:05 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(25-09-2016, 12:09 AM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Sam G Wrote:That's admittedly possible, but eo and eeo are fairly rare as word endings.

They are much rarer than ey and eey, but the question is whether they are valid. If we're willing to accept that o is a vowel, and that y can be a vowel, why can we not accept they are both vowels in the same environment?

It's possible, but there are also words ending in es and ees so interpreting y as a consonant in this context also makes sense (assuming we regard s as a consonant).

Also there are words ending in oy, which are admittedly very rare but this would also point to y functioning as a consonant (in parallel with common o-endings ol and or).

Though again, my main reason for thinking that y is a syllabic consonant is that while on the one hand it seems to usually behave as a vowel, on the other hand it seems to be part of a coherent system along with other letters that appear to be consonants, as I briefly outlined here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:
Quote:Well, I did not know that, but it's not a problem if y and l are syllabic consonants representing liquids.

Can I ask for some examples or arguments for why l is syllabic? I know that lk appears, but I doubt l is syllabic here. It could be a digraph or even perfectly reasonable as part of a cluster.

A word like lkaiin would seem to parallel ykaiin, would it not? And again there's the fact that y and l seem to be related generally.

Quote:
Quote:I don't see why this should be true. The Wikipedia page on syllabic consonants provides counterexamples in English: A syllabic consonant or vocalic consonant is a consonant which either forms a syllable on its own, like the m, n and l in the English words rhythm, button and bottle... In both "rhythm" and "button" you have a syllabic nasal following a consonant.

These only work because the following nasal is its own syllable. Onset clusters of obstruent + nasal are less common typically. Voynichese could have them but I would want to explore the alternatives first.

What I'm saying is that the nasal could be its own syllable in Voynichese, too. So a word like okchdy could be a three-syllable word, as we might also interpret okeedy to be.

And I'm definitely not certain that ch and Sh are nasals. It's just something that seems possible. Actually the main problem I see with it is that it's not clear what we would then make of the fact that ch can combine with gallows letters like k to form cKh. Assuming the gallows letters are stops and/or affricates, is there such a thing as a "nasalized stop" or a "nasalized affricate"?

Or conversely, if we take cKh to be something like an aspirated or glottalized form of k, as seems possible, then the most straightforward interpretation of ch would seem to be as some kind of fricative. Then is there such a thing as a "syllabic fricative"?

(25-09-2016, 02:04 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(25-09-2016, 12:09 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I don't see why this should be true. The Wikipedia page on syllabic consonants provides counterexamples in English: A syllabic consonant or vocalic consonant is a consonant which either forms a syllable on its own, like the m, n and l in the English words rhythm, button and bottle... In both "rhythm" and "button" you have a syllabic nasal following a consonant.

...

I don't understand why Wikipedia would use button as an example, alongside rhythm and bottle. Rhythm is a good example, but "button" has the vowel in front of it. The consonant "n" isn't syllabic on its own.

It's talking about how these words are pronounced, not how they're spelled. Phonetically the second syllable of "button" doesn't contain a vowel, it's just a syllabic "n".

Yes, I know it's talking about how they are pronounced. But the spelling is what determines if the consonant is syllabic...

For example, rhythm is pronounced rhyth'm (as though there were a vowel in there to aid the "m"). Some people even pronounce "film" this way (and some don't).
Similarly, bottle is pronounced bott'l as though there were a vowel in there (in the place of the apostrophe).

So those are both good examples. But...
Button HAS a vowel. We don't say butto'n (butt-oh-en), we say butt-on. The "n" is not syllabic on its own as are the "m" and "l" in rhythm and bottle. The vowel "o" exists together with the "n" to create the syllable sound. If the word were spelled buttn, then the "n" would be considered syllabic. As an example, it does not parallel the first two and causes confusion to someone trying to understand how a consonant can also be a syllable (without the vowel being explicitly included).
RE: Voynichese Phonotactics

Koen G > 25-09-2016, 02:28 PM

JKP: I think it's about British pronunciation. There you can get something like "buh-n". The "buh" is the first syllable, the "n" the second. I don't see the difference with an example like bottle that can be pronounced "bo-l".
RE: Voynichese Phonotactics

Emma May Smith > 25-09-2016, 02:44 PM

Sam is right in respect of syllabic consonants.

A word like 'bottle', when pronounced, can have two syllables yet only one vowel. It is not that an extra vowel is inserted before /l/, but rather that /l/ acts like a vowel in its own right. Your teacher who taught you that every syllable has to have a vowel was wrong (though they were right to teach you the way they did).

Some people do pronounce 'bottle', 'rhythm', and 'button' with two vowels, but /botl/, /riðm/, and /butn/ are perfectly normal in many varieties of English.
RE: Voynichese Phonotactics

-JKP- > 25-09-2016, 03:50 PM

(25-09-2016, 02:44 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

A word like 'bottle', when pronounced, can have two syllables yet only one vowel. It is not that an extra vowel is inserted before /l/, but rather that /l/ acts like a vowel in its own right. Your teacher who taught you that every syllable has to have a vowel was wrong (though they were right to teach you the way they did).

Some people do pronounce 'bottle', 'rhythm', and 'button' with two vowels, but /botl/, /riðm/, and /butn/ are perfectly normal in many varieties of English.

Yes, exactly.

A word like rhythm or bottle behaves as if there is a vowel even when the vowel isn't there. As I said, those are good examples.

But my point is that "button" is not in the same category, the vowel IS there, so the "n" in this context is not an example of a syllabic consonant because the "o" creates the vowel sound. The syllable is created by the combination of the "o" (vowel) and "n" (consonant). It's different from rhyth[]m and bott[]le where the "m" and "l" are syllabic consonants.
RE: Voynichese Phonotactics

Koen G > 25-09-2016, 03:54 PM

JKP:

Here you can listen to UK and US pronunciation: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

As you hear, the UK pronunciation does not produce a "mute e" sound. It is the actual consonants that take over the function of a vowel. The "o" is dropped and the "t-n" become "vowels".
RE: Voynichese Phonotactics

-JKP- > 25-09-2016, 03:59 PM
(25-09-2016, 03:54 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP:

Here you can listen to UK and US pronunciation: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

As you hear, the UK pronunciation does not produce a "mute e" sound. It is the actual consonants that take over the function of a vowel. The "o" is dropped and the "t-n" become "vowels".

I understand some of the differences in British pronunciation, but turning the t and n into "vowels" and dropping the "o" is a different dynamic from a syllabic consonant.

The Wikipedia article was specifically giving examples of syllabic consonants. Two are valid, one doesn't belong (regardless of British pronunciation) and if we don't all agree on that, then anything we say about the VMS will be understood differently by each poster and we'll go round in circles.

To give some additional examples... in the words on the left, the marked consonants are functioning as syllabic consonants (the vowel sound exists without the vowel and is implied and pronounced (I've added the apostrophe as an implied-vowel/pronounced-vowel indicator)).

The ones on the right are not syllabic consonants because
1. the vowel creates the vowel sound (not the consonant) or
2. (as in the example of rhythmic) because the vowel sound is not added when it is spoken:
Syllabic Consonant    Non-syllabic Consonant
Examples                    Examples (2 forms) (the consonant is simply a consonant, not a syllabic consonant)
--------------           ---------------
riddle          [ridd'l]                  ridden        [includes the vowel, so the "n" is not a syllabic consonant here]
rhythm        [rhyth'm]    rhythmic     [rhyth mic - a vowel sound is not pronounced between th and m]
fiddle           [fidd'l]         fiddler [fidd ler]
bobble   [bobb'l]    bobbing    [bobb ing]
scuttle [scutt'l]    button     [butt on]
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