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Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
- Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
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RE: Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
Searcher > 08-09-2016, 12:18 PM
Quote:Koen:
... an apparent lack of artistic talent is often found in (early) medieval manuscripts, even those that may not have been for private use. At times images were deformed to such an extent that later copyists had no idea what it was they were copying and had to come up with creative solutions. (I also write about this phenomenon in my latest You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which contains too many images to put on the forum).
I see your attention to the elephant image, so, possibly, there are two explanations:
1) the author really saw an elephant;
2) he had a best source for copying than the other.
Fortunately there are a few pretty realistic elephants from 12 to 15 cc.
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![[Image: elephant.jpg]](https://theparkerlibrary.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/elephant.jpg)
![[Image: 138313289.jpg]](http://sterolg.users.photofile.ru/photo/sterolg/2585904/xlarge/138313289.jpg)
John of Wallingford's copy:
![[Image: Drawing_of_an_elephant%2C_copied_by_John...._114r.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Drawing_of_an_elephant%2C_copied_by_John_of_Wallingford_after_Matthew_Paris_%281255%29_-_BL_Cotton_MS_Julius_D_VII%2C_f._114r.jpg)
People figures, as for me, are closer to depictions in Trotula's medical manuscript.
![[Image: tumblr_n48bzi0gNJ1t05ay2o2_250.jpg]](http://67.media.tumblr.com/af3ad0b746ff17fd3b51a76d412bce93/tumblr_n48bzi0gNJ1t05ay2o2_250.jpg)
In conclusion I need to say that author's artistic ability is not so bad to be named as outright lack of skill for those times, but are mostly careless, possibly, in details, which were not important for him, possibly, he was hurry or located in uncomfortable conditions. We can only assume. -
RE: Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
Koen G > 08-09-2016, 12:35 PM
I have read before that realistic depictions (portraits) of elephants in medieval European art could almost always be linked to an event where, as you say, an actual elephant was paraded through town. So this can indeed be an explanation - although in that case I'd find it weird that someone would hide this beast in a leaf.
The image of a human figure you post looks interesting, and I admit that it bears some resemblance to Voynich figures. -
RE: Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
Diane > 08-09-2016, 12:44 PM
Sorry, I should also have added illustrations. I don't mean to suggest you don't find images of long graceful hands in other manuscripts, Persian and earlier medieval European ones come to mind, but overall, these are the ones I think suit the style of the entire section and the style of some 'pictorial annotations' in the botanical folios too.
![[Image: hands-thai-and-sukothai.jpg]](https://voynichretro.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/hands-thai-and-sukothai.jpg)
Of the western images of elephants, this is one from St.Denys is a particular favourite of mine - an elephant was sent to Charlemagne in Aachen, though no-one seemed to know how to look after it and it was sent to St.Denys.
This is the image of the statue - though I added a handle and umbrella when I made it into a postcard, for fun.
![[Image: voynicheriana-50-stdenys.jpg]](https://dnodonovan.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/voynicheriana-50-stdenys.jpg)
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RE: Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
Searcher > 08-09-2016, 12:50 PM
(08-09-2016, 12:35 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have read before that realistic depictions (portraits) of elephants in medieval European art could almost always be linked to an event where, as you say, an actual elephant was paraded through town. So this can indeed be an explanation - although in that case I'd find it weird that someone would hide this beast in a leaf.
The image of a human figure you post looks interesting, and I admit that it bears some resemblance to Voynich figures.
Someone mentioned earlier that it could relate to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but I don't know when this name was firstly used, although it looks similar.
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RE: Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
Koen G > 08-09-2016, 01:21 PM
(08-09-2016, 12:50 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Someone mentioned earlier that it could relate to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but I don't know when this name was firstly used, although it looks similar.
That is indeed a possibility, though as you say it would require a closer investigation of the chronology of elephant-related names.
One of the difficulties with these plant-animal hybrid Voynich drawings is that one never knows for sure which part of the drawing is included to evoke the shape of the animal, and which part is actually relevant for the plant's identification.
For example in the elephant leaf's case, the leaf in the VM looks incredibly droopy, like it succumbs under its own weight, folding double downwards. Even the most impressive elephant ear leaves remain pretty much unbent, or even bend upwards a bit.
![[Image: 0fd7a8c7aa75244154cfc360babe9a7f.jpg]](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/0f/d7/a8/0fd7a8c7aa75244154cfc360babe9a7f.jpg)
An additional problem with an identification like Taro, is that the roots are way off. The VM plant has many elongated roots, while the Taro looks like this:
![[Image: 20101015-srslyasian2-500.jpg]](http://www.seriouseats.com/images/20101015-srslyasian2-500.jpg)
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RE: Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
Searcher > 08-09-2016, 01:56 PM
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RE: Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
Koen G > 08-09-2016, 02:23 PM
The main function of taro's root is that is provides food. This root is roundish and has several thin, long roots coming out of it. I would really love this to be Taro, but so far I'm not convinced :/
The Voynich plant's roots are long, relatively thick, look fibrous and have been painted blue. This does lend some support to Diane's idea that this plant was used to dye fabrics. Some of the roots even look like they end in fringes like some kind of scarf or carpet.
I haven't been able to find any plant like that yet though.
By the way - roots in the VM are very often entirely symbolical, giving a hint about the use or name of the plant instead of representing a botanically relevant structure.
If that is the case, it is possible that fibres gained from this plant are suitable to be dyed before being woven into baskets or what have you. In that case it would be sufficient to find a plant (palm?) with leaves like this which was especially useful as a source of fibres.
(For a bunch of examples from modern Africa, see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). -
RE: Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
-JKP- > 09-09-2016, 12:10 AM
I did as well. -
RE: Artistic ability of the VMs illustrator
Tisquesusa > 10-09-2016, 03:42 PM
What is meant with "illustrator"?
It is clear the VMS is compiled by different people (Currier A, B and subsets) and in a specific order:
1 - the illustrations (with ink/pen)
2 - the text
3 - the infill with paint
What I remarked in my first post here was that the drawings seem to have been done by (one, or more, of) the author(s); the fluent smooth lines resemble the text smooth lines.
I still see the paint job as very poor; it looks like a skilled craftsman left his manuscript and at night his 12 year old child was colouring the images with paint...
When we talk about "illustrator 1"; the person drawing, I'd say he is skilled; doesn't make many huge mistakes (some smaller ones yes) and draws smoothly and elegantly, no matter the subject.
If "illustrator" refers to the painter, it would be ridiculous to call that person a skilled painter.
So "ilustrator = skilled or not?" would be answered with yes AND no.
E.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The drawings of the "samovars" (as I call them; the cylinders) are done well, the roots of the plants are smooth, the lines consistent, etc.
The "centaur without head" that looks like this root is well done, showing the artist had an understanding of body shapes: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The face of the Sun on f67v2 is well done. Then the "12-year old son" came and destroyed that nice face with some blue paint:
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It could be that the author(s) of the drawings and text died/disappeared and someone else painted the VMS with paint, covering text (in the samovars) and doing an ugly job.
Question: have the texts that are painted over been summarised and analysed somewhere? They might mean something/have a different statistical spread in terms of "language" or so?
![[Image: colocasia-esculenta-20.jpg]](http://www.cooltropicalplants.com/image-files/colocasia-esculenta-20.jpg)