Koen G > 08-08-2016, 06:17 PM
Diane > 09-08-2016, 03:14 PM
(04-08-2016, 01:18 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-08-2016, 07:36 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've seen this comparison before I think.
Really, where?
Quote:What would that mean though, if indeed this is supposed to represent the Qsar mosaic leopard? Other animals in the Qsar mosaic have greenery behind them too.
Right... and depictions of Leo generally do not.
Quote:One of them is an actual lion.
...and the VMS illustration does not look like a lion.
Quote:I don't really see any other connections, do you?
You mean beyond being a blue leopard with a very similar looking tree in the background?
Quote:One more problem I see, is how would the mosaic be known to someone to reference it, if it was dug up in 1957 as a mysterious find? It seemed they were surprised by some of the imagery so it seems too obscure a reference, even if somehow someone had knowledge of it during the time of the creation of the MS.
Well I'm not saying someone saw this exact same image of course, but something similar that stemmed from the same tradition.
(07-08-2016, 02:18 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also found this goat, from El Djem in Tunisia (2nd century AD):
Coincidental similarity?
Also, Diane, I think you've mentioned before that you think one of the VMS goats is wild and the other domestic, and the stock imagery site with this mosaic image specifies that it is a wild goat:
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Sam G > 14-08-2016, 10:43 AM
ReneZ > 15-08-2016, 08:51 AM
Linda > 15-08-2016, 09:00 AM
(14-08-2016, 10:43 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, nobody else has a comment on this? The goat mosaic find in particular provides the only known example of an image in the VMS that appears to have been directly copied from the same source as some other image. You might think such a find would be considered significant.
I must say, the silence here is deafening.
(04-08-2016, 01:18 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:I don't really see any other connections, do you?
You mean beyond being a blue leopard with a very similar looking tree in the background?
Sam G > 15-08-2016, 01:06 PM
(15-08-2016, 08:51 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well,
arguing that a drawing in a 15t Century MS, and a mosaic from the 2nd century AD are copies of the same source
is a huge stretch
Quote:For me, the statements from a well-know expert in zodiac iconography:
"The signs of the Zodiac do not present problems - they are simply not of the Arateia type but were modernized.
[...]
The genre scenes, eg. Aries eating a bush, suggest that the signs were redrawn from a calendar. "
are far more convincing.
ReneZ > 15-08-2016, 01:23 PM
(15-08-2016, 01:06 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-08-2016, 08:51 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For me, the statements from a well-know expert in zodiac iconography:
"The signs of the Zodiac do not present problems - they are simply not of the Arateia type but were modernized.
[...]
The genre scenes, eg. Aries eating a bush, suggest that the signs were redrawn from a calendar. "
are far more convincing.
You cite these opinions as though she considered the evidence I presented above and dismissed it as irrelevant, but of course these opinions were offered before this evidence was available, so it is hard to see the relevance of this quote here. In any case, the remark about "redrawn from a calendar" seems to imply that she perceived an outside influence of some kind in the VMS Zodiac imagery, which along with the point about the imagery being "modernized" is actually perfectly consistent with the scenario I outlined above.
Anyway, although you did not really say so in a direct way, I will interpret your remarks as indicating that you believe the similarities in the images I presented above to be purely coincidental.
Sam G > 15-08-2016, 01:28 PM
(15-08-2016, 09:00 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Near as I can tell, you have shown an example from Libya, and one from Tunisia. What is the same source, exactly?
Quote:I went to my old computer to see if I had saved a copy of the one I said I'd seen before, but couldn't find anything so I don't know if it's a case of deja vu or whether I actually saw it, but I could swear it was a blue leopard with a palm tree behind, and if it's not your example then perhaps it's one in the same tradition as you say, so I really was hoping to find it, but no luck. If I come across it I will let you know for sure.
Quote:I don't understand why people think it is a palm tree, though, why can it not just be the lion's tail in the drawing? Seems the simplest idea. I did see a copy of your mosaic example that said it was an olive tree, although it was on a stock picture site so who knows, not likely an expert involved there, and I couldn't find any other reference to it.
Quote:But, do you know what they call the trimming that results in a tree that looks like that? Lion tailing.
Quote:Insofar as the goat, yes, similar, but I wouldn't say a definite copy job. Like all the different forms of art involving these animals, yes there are similarities, but again nothing that can confirm anything.
(15-08-2016, 01:23 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-08-2016, 01:06 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-08-2016, 08:51 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For me, the statements from a well-know expert in zodiac iconography:
"The signs of the Zodiac do not present problems - they are simply not of the Arateia type but were modernized.
[...]
The genre scenes, eg. Aries eating a bush, suggest that the signs were redrawn from a calendar. "
are far more convincing.
You cite these opinions as though she considered the evidence I presented above and dismissed it as irrelevant, but of course these opinions were offered before this evidence was available, so it is hard to see the relevance of this quote here. In any case, the remark about "redrawn from a calendar" seems to imply that she perceived an outside influence of some kind in the VMS Zodiac imagery, which along with the point about the imagery being "modernized" is actually perfectly consistent with the scenario I outlined above.
Anyway, although you did not really say so in a direct way, I will interpret your remarks as indicating that you believe the similarities in the images I presented above to be purely coincidental.
I don't want to second-guess about what she may or may not have thought, but obviously she will be fully aware of the existence of zodiac images in mosaics throughout the ages.
Quote:Given the difference both in time and geographic location of the two images, I do consider them independent, so the similarity to be a generic one.
Quote:If one has a large number of images of a goat, some will end up being quite similar.
Quote:I understand (interpret) the modernisation to have been a gradual process. Documents being copied throughout the ages.
MarcoP > 15-08-2016, 01:50 PM
(15-08-2016, 01:28 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.in any case, the tail in the VMS looks different from any Leo image I have seen, which makes the resemblance to this tree quite striking.
Sam G > 15-08-2016, 02:08 PM
(15-08-2016, 01:50 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-08-2016, 01:28 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.in any case, the tail in the VMS looks different from any Leo image I have seen, which makes the resemblance to this tree quite striking.
Hi Sam,
what about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.?
It's one of the sources discussed on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..