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• Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

• RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

  MarcoP > 26-07-2016, 04:23 PM

  (26-07-2016, 04:17 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.la terre le tient droit au fut milieu (where milieu=environment/surroundings cause univers=universe)
  
  feu = fire
  air 
  yaiir ???
  terre = earth/ground

  
  Sorry, David, I accidentally cut a word from the label. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  La terre se tient droit au fin milieu du monde.
  
  Earth keeps itself right (droit) at the exact (fin) middle of the universe.
  
  
  yaue=eau=water, I guess.

• RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

  Linda > 26-07-2016, 05:01 PM

  (26-07-2016, 03:08 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (26-07-2016, 02:44 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And what this pattern designates in Walters?

  
  It represents Earth: the pattern is in most cases filled with green and occurs in a number of diagrams representing "Earth" as "the World" (we would now say "planet Earth"). 
  
  In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it represents Earth ("Terre") as one of the Four Elements. I think the title in red above the illustration could translate "The Earth keeps itself at the exact center of the Universe".

  
  
  Some early world maps also drew the world as a hill rising out of a surrounding ocean, so the mountain idea could still be indicated along with the Earth/Terra identification.
  
  In fact I think quire 14 shows this hill idea twice in the same rosette, one in a drawing of said hill: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Note that the writing in the circle around the rosette has a mark right where the mountain is, I think this indicates this is a starting point of understanding the graphics as well. The other can be seen in the spiral wording through the stars which can be thought of as a 3d hill, surrounded by the waves, or 7 seas, combined to become the grander outer ocean, same as indicated by the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. link above. Here is the quire 14 view which matches it, in my interpretation at least: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  I see other layers of meaning in this rosette as well, but these seem pertinent to the posted link.
  
  Here is Cosmas' tabernacle (circa 550) which shows this idea from the side. The drawing of the mountain in the first jasondavies link above I think shares some commonality with the shape of this one and/or ones like it. Again most of the waters are all connected and basically surround the mountain, and the world can be seen as being made up of earth, water, air, and fire (the sun) in this interpretation as well. (all in a nice handy box).
  
  

  ---

  (26-07-2016, 02:36 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.f48v of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Gossouin of Metz, Image du Monde (1489) has illustrations of the world with a pattern similar to some details of the Rosettes page. The pattern in also similar to a common way to illustrate mountains that can also be seen in the Beatus map Linda linked You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. But in the Walters ms each element of the texture has a central dot, as in some of the occurrences in the Voynich ms.
  
  
  

  also if you combine this motif and the umbrellas and nebuly lines, you get the meaning of the "pine cones": ice cap melt and or precipitation runoff from mountains (i.e. water from on high)
  

  ---

  (26-07-2016, 04:23 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (26-07-2016, 04:17 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.la terre le tient droit au fut milieu (where milieu=environment/surroundings cause univers=universe)
  
  feu = fire
  air 
  yaiir ???
  terre = earth/ground

  
  Sorry, David, I accidentally cut a word from the label. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  La terre se tient droit au fin milieu du monde.
  
  Earth keeps itself right (droit) at the exact (fin) middle of the universe.
  
  
  yaue=eau=water, I guess.

  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

  Diane > 26-07-2016, 06:07 PM

  I've discussed the issue of precedence again recently with Nick Pelling, who was the person who first advised me when I asked whether anyone before me had formally analysed the content of that folio or recognised it as a map.
  
  His initial response had been that although there had been a few intermittent 'kites' flown, no suitably qualified person had researched it in depth, or explained each part of the map and the relationship of parts to the whole, nor discerned signs of chronological strata... as I had.  Mine was then the first formal analysis of the folio, and the first certain demonstration that it ws a map.
  
  More recently Nick has emailed me with copies of a conversation he had had some years before, in which he theorised that it might be a city-plan, and specifically of Milan.  He was so enthusiastic about that theory, at the time, that he flew to Milan to see whether or not an aerial view of the city might show a fair correspondence to the arrangement of streets and remaining medieval buildings.
  
  Apparently he later abandoned that theory, but in my opinion he deserves credit as the person who first took it seriously- not just as "I can make it into anything that suits my theory" fantasizing.
  
  He did not, however, recognise it as a map - rather, as a city plan - and most critically, he had not recognised its scale, nor (from what he tells me) had he oriented it correctly.
  
  My analysis of the folio was published from late 2010 through 2011 and with additional commentary on the evidence since then.
  
  I might add, just by the way, that I'm a formally qualified iconographic analyst who specialises in problematic artefacts and have thirty-five years' specialist practice. (On the other hand I've only had to learn to type my own posts since retiring.)
  
  One of the reasons that Voynich studies goes no-where, and with leaden feet is this curious phenomenon where people think you can explain a six-hundred year old artefact when its imagery is so opaque to modern European eyes, when its text is unknown and unread,  and do so without any particular study but just pulling out whatever happens to be in your head already or whatever happens to grab your fancy elsewhere - Pinterest is a particular irritant.
  
  The attitude to imagery which says, in effect, "my guess is as good as yours" is true as far as it goes.  The thing is that "guessing" is just a waste of everyone's time.  If you wouldn't walk into the Louvre, and think you could just 'out of your head' identify the painter, date the painting, list the pigments with their chemical constituents and recognise from the style of pen- or brushwork whether it was a fake, a copy, or an original - then really, please don't think you can do the equivalent with *this* six-hundred year old drawing.
  
  I'm sorry to be terse, but the manuscript deserves more respect.. and frankly so does my analysis of that folio.  By all means debate my evidence or my conclusions, if you feel you have researched the historical, geographical, cartographic, and other relevant matter - including for example which towns and cities were still standing after the early fourteenth century quakes in Asia minor and Italy...
  
  If the frontispiece to the Book of Kells were in the Voynich manuscript, wouldn't you at least try to understand earlier explanations and research before waffling on that it looked like the turkish carpet you happened to read about last week?
  
  Why treat Beinceke MS 408 so cavalierly, then?

• RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

  MarcoP > 27-07-2016, 10:35 AM

  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (click on “Items on Folio” on the left for an extensive description; “Enlarge image” is on the right) in St John's College ms 17 (England, 1110 ca) is simpler than the Rosettes diagram, but it has a roughly similar structure, being mainly composed of nine circles, one at the center and eight disposed in a quadrangular pattern. 
  The four circles at the corners correspond to the four elements and the cardinal directions. The four circles along the sides of the diamond correspond to the four seasons and the four ages of man.
  Byrhtferth's diagram also includes an outer 8-shaped layer in which the signs of the zodiac and the months are inscribed (this is one of the many differences with the Rosettes diagram).
  
  The central circle contains “an eight-spoked wheel, resembling a sundial or horologium, above which is a narrow horizontal strip containing some symbols, a fragment of Ogham or pseudo-Ogham writing, and abbreviated words.” The meaning of the central inscription has not been identified with certainty, but it contains the Greek abbreviation of Christ XPC (chi-rho-sigma) so it is reasonable to assume that the center is related to God (while the Voynich Rosettes diagram seems to be strictly “scientific” with no recognizable Christian or religious meaning).

• RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

  Davidsch > 27-07-2016, 11:15 AM

  yes Marco, I've read a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. this, where he tried to decipher the Ogham signs.
  
  If you go to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you'll see other interesting items:
  
  
  zodiacs, winds, TO-map but also 
  
  

  Quote:The Sawley Map
  From the Imago mundi by Honorius Augustodunensis England, probably Durham, ca. 1190
  
  
  This early map performs an encyclopedic function, bringing together and organizing in a visual compendium a wealth of accumulated geographical knowledge from the Bible, Greek legends, Alexandrian adventure tales, and ancient cosmographies. It organizes the world in terms of centrality and remoteness: the Mediterranean Sea, outlined in green, lies at the center, while Britain (Britannia insula at the lower left corner) and the desert monasteries of Egypt (at the upper right) appear at the outer edges. It includes the Red Sea, divided, in the top right corner; Scylla and Charybdis, the sea monsters of Greek myth, in the Mediterranean; and Paradise, appropriately, at the top.

• RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

  Linda > 27-07-2016, 11:41 PM

  (27-07-2016, 10:35 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (click on “Items on Folio” on the left for an extensive description; “Enlarge image” is on the right) in St John's College ms 17 (England, 1110 ca) is simpler than the Rosettes diagram, but it has a roughly similar structure, being mainly composed of nine circles, one at the center and eight disposed in a quadrangular pattern. 
  The four circles at the corners correspond to the four elements and the cardinal directions. The four circles along the sides of the diamond correspond to the four seasons and the four ages of man.
  Byrhtferth's diagram also includes an outer 8-shaped layer in which the signs of the zodiac and the months are inscribed (this is one of the many differences with the Rosettes diagram).
  
  The central circle contains “an eight-spoked wheel, resembling a sundial or horologium, above which is a narrow horizontal strip containing some symbols, a fragment of Ogham or pseudo-Ogham writing, and abbreviated words.” The meaning of the central inscription has not been identified with certainty, but it contains the Greek abbreviation of Christ XPC (chi-rho-sigma) so it is reasonable to assume that the center is related to God (while the Voynich Rosettes diagram seems to be strictly “scientific” with no recognizable Christian or religious meaning).

  A couple of other versions:
  
   
  
  
  
  from this website You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

  Davidsch > 28-07-2016, 11:50 AM

  Linda...that is exactly what i wrote in the posting before you..24 hours earlier....

• RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

  Searcher > 28-07-2016, 01:54 PM

  The Central Rosette.

  Abstracting away from the present style of depiction and, imagining it in 3D, I can see it as a mountain, surrounded at its foot by 72 angels (according to72 pipes) with trumpets and wrapped in clouds above them. There is a place with 6 towers on the mountain's peak, which covered by a starry sky  tent.
  
  
  
  This rosette, quite possibly, as many supposed, shows the Earth (the World of the Earth), not in exact interpretation, but as a part of cosmogonical reflection.
  Generally, the whole "Rosettes" chart may represent an idea of the Creation.
  1.    Six towers may mean 6 days of creation.
  2.    The "tent" above the central circle – is the firmament, fixed above the Earth.
  3.    Most of rosettes show some processes with the water that could mean a division of the Cosmic Waters by God.
  The riddle is only in 13 protuberances of the "starry tent", which must be 12. One of them is hidden, so, visually they seem to be 12, while, the number 13 is still a riddle for researchers of the Genesis, the Bible, cabbala and so on.
  However, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. could clarify many points in our issue. It seems, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. article explains it nicely.
  
  Quote:
  "On the second day in the Genesis narrative the Lord calls for there to be a "firmament" in the "midst of the waters" to divide the waters:
  

  Quote:"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
  (Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

  The term "firmament" and its identity has been one of the greatest puzzles concerning the Creation account, mostly because of its Hebrew definition:
  רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah 
  from 7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
  רָקַע raqa` raw-kah' 
  a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
  Most people interpret this to mean just the expanse of the sky (the atmosphere) or outer space, or both (which it is), but the full meaning goes well beyond that simplistic interpretation. The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure."
  
  The gallery on this theme:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Egyptic flat earth.
  
  
  2. Early Hebraic (biblical) world view.
  
  
  
  
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Hindy cosmos.
  
  
  
  4. Babilonian universe (reconstruction).
  
  
  
  5. Alchemical mountain.
  
  
  
  6. Freemason chessboard.
  
  
  It is difficult to say what culture it belongs to for now.
  

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  P. S. Need to mention: in fact, 72 may exactly be 72 names of God (Jewish) or 72 angels (geniis) = God name + ending -El  or -Yah.

• RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

  Davidsch > 28-07-2016, 02:45 PM

  ok, very nice, but let me ask you: if you can draw naked ladies, why should one draw 72 pipes when you want to display angles ?
  
  The artist shows he is able to draw waves in 3D on the Rosette page and he can draw depth (see the sunken tower).

• RE: Why the rosettes image may not be a map at all

  Searcher > 28-07-2016, 02:55 PM

  (28-07-2016, 02:45 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.ok, very nice, but let me ask you: if you can draw naked ladies, why should one draw 72 pipes when you want to display angles ?
  
  The artist shows he is able to draw waves in 3D on the Rosette page and he can draw depth (see the sunken tower).

  
  Oh, it may be simple, the author wanted readers to see the naked ladies, but not the 72 pipes as names of God or angels , the power and energy of which was used. As I understand, it was a basis of the Creation in Hebraic system, including cabbala.
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