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Non-linear line ordering
- Non-linear line ordering
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Non-linear line ordering
bvanheu > Yesterday, 04:41 PM
I think this was discussed in the past (i.e. in the "gallow intrusion" thread), but in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f58v, there seem to be evidence that some lines were written after the immediate bottom line, with glyph from the top line being written over the glyph from the bottom line?
If the gallow was written after the top line, why make it so big that it extends over the above glyph?
Why start the gallow line so that it's *over* the glyph above?
It seems to me the tail has been made in one continuous trait?
Is there a concensus around line ordering, beside that "block of text" were written before/after others? -
RE: Non-linear line ordering
ololololo > Yesterday, 05:24 PM
The examples you provided may be a simple spelling error. There is nothing wrong with EVA y's long tail reaching the large gallows.
I suppose that if the author was rewriting the text from a draft, he might have known in advance where and how the gallows would be placed, which is why he left room for them.
The same is found on f78v:
The most interesting part is f88v, where the first letters seem to be written before the words:
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RE: Non-linear line ordering
tavie > Yesterday, 05:42 PM
(Yesterday, 04:41 PM)bvanheu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the gallow was written after the top line, why make it so big that it extends over the above glyph?
If we did imagine that the lines were written in reverse order, you could still ask the opposite question: why does the descender intrude into the gallows glyph? It could have been avoided either way.
I do find this interesting, though, and hope to write something up soon.
On the question of whether the lines are written out of order, here are some links you may find useful:- This thread - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - since it considers the possibility of lines written out of order.
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Rene (showing potential changes of ink and possibly order of writing) is also relevant.
- And - getting in here before Jorge - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may also be relevant, since it is possible some glyphs could have been retouched.
- This thread - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - since it considers the possibility of lines written out of order.
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RE: Non-linear line ordering
Jorge_Stolfi > Yesterday, 08:30 PM
(Yesterday, 05:24 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I suppose that if the author was rewriting the text from a draft, he might have known in advance where and how the gallows would be placed, which is why he left room for them.
How so?
It is very likely that the Scribe who put the book to vellum mostly ignored the line breaks (but not the parag breaks) of the Author's draft and chose its own line breaks based on the space available. Evidence for this is what we see on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f112v. Also on the Herbal pages, on f82r2+f82r3 and f82v3+f2v2, on many Bio pages, etc.
In that case, when he started writing a line he could not know in advance where each future glyph would end up, on that line or on the next one. If he was a professional book Scribe he should have kept the baselines straight and spaced enough apart to avoid excessive overlap of tails, plumes, and tall letters. But he was sloppy on this point, as on many others; and anyway such occasional overlaps would not be considered a flaw, here or on other manuscripts.
A more intriguing puzzle is what happened on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. lines 10-14.... The baseline of line 11 deviates to make room for the half-width right-justified line 10, but the latter has an extra-wide word gap to avoid a tall gallows of line 11. Which line was written first? I offered my theory not long ago, in some other thread...
Moreover, this sort of analysis is likely to fail if one does not take the BEEP into account.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Non-linear line ordering
ololololo > Yesterday, 08:37 PM
(Yesterday, 08:30 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is very likely that the Scribe who put the book to vellum mostly ignored the line breaks (but not the parag breaks) of the Author's draft and chose its own line breaks based on the space available. Evidence for this is what we see on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f112v. Also on the Herbal pages, on f82r2+f82r3 and f82v3+f2v2, on many Bio pages, etc.
Perhaps purely intuitively anticipating that there would be a gallows in a certain place. Perhaps he wasn't thinking about a gallows, but just writing crookedly.
Everything is possible... -
RE: Non-linear line ordering
bvanheu > Yesterday, 10:46 PM
(Yesterday, 05:24 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The examples you provided may be a simple spelling error. There is nothing wrong with EVA y's long tail reaching the large gallows.
I suppose that if the author was rewriting the text from a draft, he might have known in advance where and how the gallows would be placed, which is why he left room for them.
There's nothing wrong with the EVA y's long tail reaching the large gallows, it's more about the detail that it seems that some glyph from above was written *over* the gallow glyph, so does that mean the gallow glyph was written before the EVA y's?
Spelling error would leave less space between words, i.e. if they proof-read the paragraph and added glyphs at the end of the word. -
RE: Non-linear line ordering
Jorge_Stolfi > Yesterday, 11:51 PM
(Yesterday, 10:46 PM)bvanheu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it's more about the detail that it seems that some glyph from above was written *over* the gallow glyph bwloe, so does that mean the gallow glyph was written before the EVA y's?
Ah! I see now what you mean.
Be careful about the questions you ask. Satan may use them to drag you into heresy.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Non-linear line ordering
tavie > Today, 12:31 AM
(Yesterday, 11:51 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(Yesterday, 10:46 PM)bvanheu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it's more about the detail that it seems that some glyph from above was written *over* the gallow glyph bwloe, so does that mean the gallow glyph was written before the EVA y's?
Be careful about the questions you ask. Satan may use them to drag you into heresy.
Are you considering a new user title, by any chance? -
RE: Non-linear line ordering
DG97EEB > 11 hours ago
(Yesterday, 11:51 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(Yesterday, 10:46 PM)bvanheu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it's more about the detail that it seems that some glyph from above was written *over* the gallow glyph bwloe, so does that mean the gallow glyph was written before the EVA y's?
Ah! I see now what you mean.
Be careful about the questions you ask. Satan may use them to drag you into heresy.
All the best, --stolfi
Jorge,
I realise these discussions have decades before them, but for newcomers who don't know what BEEEP is or what some of the heretical topics might be, it could be helpful to set them out. I've been here since only October last year and have the Voynich Archive search engine, and I have absolutely no clue.. can we have a moratorium? -
RE: Non-linear line ordering
ololololo > 11 hours ago
(Yesterday, 10:46 PM)bvanheu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It's also possible... Perhaps someone really likes the y-tail.(Yesterday, 05:24 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The examples you provided may be a simple spelling error. There is nothing wrong with EVA y's long tail reaching the large gallows.
I suppose that if the author was rewriting the text from a draft, he might have known in advance where and how the gallows would be placed, which is why he left room for them.
There's nothing wrong with the EVA y's long tail reaching the large gallows, it's more about the detail that it seems that some glyph from above was written *over* the gallow glyph bwloe, so does that mean the gallow glyph was written before the EVA y's?
Spelling error would leave less space between words, i.e. if they proof-read the paragraph and added glyphs at the end of the word.
However, I assume that the author had a rough idea of where the gallows would be located.