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Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
- Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
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RE: Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
Jorge_Stolfi > 19-07-2026, 03:21 AM
(18-07-2026, 01:31 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It’s a typical iron gall ink.
How do you know that the manuscript you showed is in iron-gall ink?
Quote:See pages You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and 116v. If it weren’t, you probably wouldn’t be able to see anything at all. ...If the VM had been written in a non-iron-based ink, it would look something like this.
It would look like the red writing on zillions of medieval manuscripts, or like the blue and red writing on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Or like the red ink on f67r2. Only brown.
Quote:This is exactly the kind of abrasion Crowe was looking for, but didn’t find. Not every ink contains soot and gum arabic to make it appear a beautiful black. Once the gum arabic has become brittle with age, the writing crumbles too.
Is that clear?
Not at all. Lots of problems with this sentence.
By "Crowe" You mean McCrone? They found iron in the ink, but none of their instruments could tell the difference between iron-gall and a watercolor-like ink with ocher pigment. They did not look for "abrasion".
Iron-gall ink is not supposed to contain soot. The black color is intrinsic, due to a polymer of tannin and iron(III) that forms relatively quickly once the fresh ink is exposed to air.
Gum arabic will soften and dissolve in water, and will be consumed by mold and insects over time. It is not the gum arabic that holds the iron-gall ink to the vellum, but the tannin that binds chemically to the protein in the hide. That is why iron-gall ink is waterproof and won't crumble or flake off. And that is why it was normally used to write on vellum.
Quote:Did you know that for 20,000 years, right back to ancient times, the recipe hasn’t really changed at all?
Saliva/water, fruit juice/sugar and charcoal.
Actually ink recipes have been much more varied than that. For instance, the black "india" ink, best suited for paper and papyrus, is not made from charcoal (too coarse) but from lampblack (soot), obtained by burning some fatty fuel and collecting putting some cold surface into the black smoke.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
Aga Tentakulus > 19-07-2026, 07:10 AM
(19-07-2026, 03:21 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Did you know that for 20,000 years, right back to ancient times, the recipe hasn’t really changed at all?
Saliva/water, fruit juice/sugar and charcoal.
This refers to the cave painting.
The recipe for ink in ancient times was as follows:
Dissolve gum arabic in warm water, then add soot until it is a deep black.
This standard recipe was widespread as far afield as China.
It is not eaten by insects; it flakes off due to wear and tear. Half a million papyrus fragments bear witness to this. Work is currently underway to make them legible again.
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And then came iron-based ink. It does not flake off, nor does it fade.
There are various recipes for this.
The cheapest is rusty red-brown. Water, rusty iron and a little salt. If you want it a bit redder, use red wine instead of water.
As I said, I’m working on it. To really understand it, you need to know everything.
For example: to make iron gall ink (grey-black) blacker, you add soot and gum arabic. If the soot flakes off, the grey is still visible. -
RE: Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
Aga Tentakulus > 19-07-2026, 08:28 AM
@Stolfi
I’m starting to think we mean the same thing, but we’re talking at cross-purposes.
I’ve now read so many websites about historical inks, which has only made things more complicated.
Ah, how lovely it was when there were only two. -
RE: Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
Oscroft > 19-07-2026, 10:10 AM
(19-07-2026, 08:28 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I’m starting to think we mean the same thing, but we’re talking at cross-purposes.
I’ve now read so many websites about historical inks, which has only made things more complicated.
I'm far from being an expert in historical ink technology, just have a bit of interest in it through liking 'proper' writing
So this is just a few comments from reading this recent interesting discussion... based on my own imperfect understanding, so additions/corrections welcomed...
There are indeed inks that use iron but which are not iron gall inks... if there's nothing included to provide tannin (the galls), the iron-tannin reaction that produces the black colour doesn't happen. And an iron gall ink can fade over time to a more brownish rust-like colour too, so it can be hard to be identify - especially as there are so many possible combinations of ingredients. So, evidence of iron in a sample is not necessarily evidence of iron gall ink - though the absence of iron can help exclude it.
I think calling gum arabic (or other similar materials) a binder can perhaps be a bit misleading. It can have the property of binding pigments to some surfaces - especially less absorbent ones. But as I understand it, its essential use with inks made for quills and parchment/paper is to thicken the ink a bit so the quill can hold more, and make the ink flow better in a thicker layer. The iron-tannin compound in gall ink itself binds well to parchment and paper fibres.
I've seen reference to McCrone quite a bit, but I can't find a source of their actual work - every link I've found is dead. Does anyone have a working link?
Finally, as an aside, I found some ferrous sulphate in a cupboard here yesterday... it's no spooky event, I just remembered I'd used something for dealing with moss in my lawn a few years ago and had half a memory that's what it was.
I have no oak galls, but I do have tea and there's plenty of tannin in that, so I tried making some ink. I didn't want any gum, as I want to be able to use fountain pens. The result is a workable ink which quickly develops a pleasing dark grey shade, and which will presumably darken a bit further with time. I might add a bit of thickener to a small sample (no gum, but I have some honey) to see if that works better with a dip pen. Thanks for the inspiration, folks! -
RE: Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
Jorge_Stolfi > 19-07-2026, 11:54 AM
(19-07-2026, 10:10 AM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And an iron gall ink can fade over time to a more brownish rust-like colour too, so it can be hard to be identify - especially as there are so many possible combinations of ingredients. So, evidence of iron in a sample is not necessarily evidence of iron gall ink
That is my understanding too. But I don't know how often and how fast IGI turns brown. I would quess that it depends of a humid environment so that molds can digest the tannin away.
Quote:though the absence of iron can help exclude it.
From what I understand, I think it does exclude it.
McCrone detected iron in the main text ink (although it may have been from the BEEP) and the folio numbers, but did not see any iron in the quire numbers. Still they concluded that it must have been "low-iron iron-gall ink". Which makes as much sense as "grape-free Chianti".
Quote:I've seen reference to McCrone quite a bit, but I can't find a source of their actual work - every link I've found is dead. Does anyone have a working link?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(The "images" subfolder is just the images extracted from the PDF documents.)
Quote:Finally, as an aside, I found some ferrous sulphate in a cupboard here yesterday... it's no spooky event, I just remembered I'd used something for dealing with moss in my lawn a few years ago and had half a memory that's what it was.
I have no oak galls, but I do have tea and there's plenty of tannin in that, so I tried making some ink. I didn't want any gum, as I want to be able to use fountain pens. The result is a workable ink which quickly develops a pleasing dark grey shade, and which will presumably darken a bit further with time. I might add a bit of thickener to a small sample (no gum, but I have some honey) to see if that works better with a dip pen. Thanks for the inspiration, folks!
Great!
I don't know how much tannin there is in a tea bag. Maybe you need to make a really strong tea...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
Oscroft > 19-07-2026, 11:58 AM
(19-07-2026, 11:54 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(The "images" subfolder is just the images extracted from the PDF documents.)
Brilliant, thanks.
(19-07-2026, 11:54 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know how much tannin there is in a tea bag. Maybe you need to make a really strong tea...
Yep, eight tea bags in about 250ml, simmered for 30 minutes! I definitely wouldn't drink it
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RE: Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
Aga Tentakulus > 19-07-2026, 01:59 PM
What exactly are tannins?
They are simply tannic acid. Gallnuts contain high levels of it because the oak tree wants to protect itself from sawfly caterpillars.
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Essentially, iron that has been chemically ‘burned’ by tannic acid (or any acid) turns black and can no longer rust. Rust = (iron + oxygen).
When McCrone refers to ‘light grey’ (Lowe Gallink), there is a reason for this.
The recipes state that the mixture must be left to react for at least 14 days.
That is precisely the point. Nowhere is it stated how dark the ink will be after 14 days, or after 21, 25 or 30 days of reaction.
One thing is certain: it gets progressively darker.
That’s also something I’m working on.
This leads me to suspect that the VM drawings, star charts and astrological pages were drawn first.
Because on other pages, the text also gets progressively darker.
Is it a different ink, or was the artist simply impatient? -
RE: Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
Jorge_Stolfi > 19-07-2026, 05:06 PM
(19-07-2026, 01:59 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What exactly are tannins?They are simply tannic acid. Essentially, iron that has been chemically ‘burned’ by tannic acid (or any acid) turns black and can no longer rust. Rust = (iron + oxygen).
A common definition of acid is a molecule that can donate protons -- that is, lose hydrogen atoms to other molecules while retaining their electrons. Tannins are formally acids, but that is not what makes them the key ingredient of iron-gal ink. Tannin cannot be replaced by another acid in the formula of iron-gall ink.
Tannins are large multi-branched molecules full of six-sided benzene rings bearing multiple -OH groups. These rings bind strongly to both proteins and iron ions. They will indiscriminately bind to protein molecules and tie them into messy tangles that most organisms cannot digest. In particular, they will bind to the molecules that stick out of the cells of the mucosas in one's mouth, including the proteins that detect sugars and other flavors; that is the reason for the adstringent sensation one gets when eating an unripe banana.
Tannins will also bind to the iron(II) ions of a solution of green vitriol. The combined molecule iron(II)+tannin absorbs light better than iron(II) alone, and thus the solution turns from very pale green to a darker bluish gray. In the proportions used for IGI, the complexes of iron(II)+tannin still stay dissolved.
However, if the solution is exposed to air, the iron(II) ions will react with oxygen to produce iron(III) ions. The iron(III)+tannin molecule absorbs light much more strongly, so the solution will turn intense black.
Tannin binds much more strongly to iron(III) ions than to iron(II) ions; and moreover the iron(III) catalyzes other reactions of tannin with oxygen, causing the tannin molecules to bind to each other. In the end, both processes result into an insoluble polymer of tannin+ iron. If that happens while the ink is still in the bottle, this polymer will settle to the bottom and the ink will be ruined. If it happens after the ink has been applied, the in ink will become a waterproof film chemically attached to the vellum.
Green vitriol contains (negative) sulfate ions besides (positive) iron(II) ions. When the latter combine with tannin, the sulfate ions combine with hydrogen ions released by the tannin to form sulfuric acid. That is not a problem when writing on vellum, because the surface is usually impregnated with chalk, that neutralizes the acid.
On the other hand, if iron-gall ink is used on paper, this acid will remain behind after the water evaporates, and will slowly cause the paper to become brittle and eventually crumble into dust, turning the text into a string of letter-shaped holes. But this damage takes decades to occur, so scribes who had IGI at hand would use it on paper too, for letters and other documents that were not meant to last that long.
Quote:This leads me to suspect that the VM drawings, star charts and astrological pages were drawn first.
Because on other pages, the text also gets progressively darker. Is it a different ink, or was the artist simply impatient?
Again, the ink of the text cannot be iron-gall ink, because it is not waterproof at all. The faded appearance of the Zodiac pages can be explained by them having been handled much more often than the other pages.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Could a chemist reproduce inks of medieval quality, then apply them to vellum?
Aga Tentakulus > 19-07-2026, 07:40 PM
(19-07-2026, 05:06 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Again, the ink of the text cannot be iron-gall ink, because it is not waterproof at all. The faded appearance of the Zodiac pages can be explained by them having been handled much more often than the other pages.
I’m now keen to hear your explanation for the even wear on all sides, though.