Jorge_Stolfi > 23-05-2026, 03:22 PM
(23-05-2026, 02:44 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The lines represent ED1 relationships. Two nodes are connected if one form can be transformed into the other by a single insertion, deletion, or substitution. The actual physical lengths of the lines are not meaningful by themselves. The graph layout uses a spring-force algorithm that tries to pull highly connected regions together while pushing weakly connected regions apart.
Dunsel > 23-05-2026, 04:12 PM
(23-05-2026, 03:22 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder if one could use the width of the lines to convey some useful information?
Jorge_Stolfi > 23-05-2026, 07:09 PM
(23-05-2026, 04:12 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I fed your suggestions into codex. It took it a bit to get it, "I think" correct.
Dunsel > 23-05-2026, 07:42 PM
(23-05-2026, 07:09 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(23-05-2026, 04:12 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I fed your suggestions into codex. It took it a bit to get it, "I think" correct.
Thank you!
I cannot tell if the line thicknesses are right of wrong, but they suggest other more specific tests.
Could you please do daiin, on the Starred Parags section?
All the best, --stolfi
Dunsel > 23-05-2026, 07:52 PM
(23-05-2026, 07:09 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(23-05-2026, 04:12 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I fed your suggestions into codex. It took it a bit to get it, "I think" correct.
Thank you!
I cannot tell if the line thicknesses are right of wrong, but they suggest other more specific tests.
Could you please do daiin, on the Starred Parags section?
All the best, --stolfi
Torsten > 26-05-2026, 04:12 AM
(21-05-2026, 03:29 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sorry, I don't understand this argument.
Take for example
56 otedy 56 oteedy
2 ytedy 12 yteedy
If, after a suitable warm-up period, the words otedy and oteedy are equally frequent (as shown), and the mutation process can create ytedy from otedy, it should also create yteedy from oteedy. Then ytedy and yteedy should be equally frequent too. But their ratio is only 1:6.
As I see it, the only ways your model would create the above counts are (1) the mutation of the prefix o->y is sensitive to whether the suffix is edy or eedy, or vice-versa, or (2) the seed text had those four words in those approximate skewed ratios (maybe no ytedy at all), and the mutation rules cannot create enough ytedy from otedy or from yteedy to raise the ytedy:yteedy ratio above 1:6. Isn't that so?
If (1) is the case, then the method is even more complicated than it seemed at first.
If (2) is the case, then the method must be relying a lot more on the seed text being "Voynichese-like". Which essentially replaces the question "how could the Author have generated the VMS text" to "how could the Author have generated a seed text with the same vocabulary and word frequencies as as the VMS text".
No?
| -kedy | -keedy | -key | -keey | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| o- | okedy (118) | okeedy (105) | okey (63) | okeey (177) |
| y- | ykedy (23) | ykeedy (30) | ykey (8) | ykeey (58) |
| ot- | otedy (155) | oteedy (100) | otey (57) | oteey (140) |
| yt- | ytedy (24) | yteedy (28) | ytey (13) | yteey (28) |
| ok- | k- | t- | ot- | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| -aiiin | okaiiin (4) | kaiiin (3) | taiiin (1) | otaiiin (1) |
| -aiin | okaiin (212) | kaiin (65) | taiin (42) | otaiin (154) |
| -ain | okain (144) | kain (48) | tain (16) | otain (96) |
| -an | okan (5) | kan (3) | tan (1) | otan (5) |
| -aiir | okaiir (6) | kaiir (—) | taiir (—) | otaiir (4) |
| -air | okair (22) | kair (14) | tair (13) | otair (21) |
| -ar | okar (129) | kar (52) | tar (43) | otar (141) |
| -ail | okail (1) | kail (1) | tail (—) | otail (1) |
| -al | okal (138) | kal (23) | tal (20) | otal (143) |
| -am | okam (26) | kam (9) | tam (—) | otam (47) |
| -os | okos (8) | kos (3) | tos (4) | otos (4) |
| -or | okor (34) | kor (26) | tor (23) | otor (46) |
| -ol | okol (82) | kol (37) | tol (48) | otol (86) |
| -o | oko (8) | ko (2) | to (2) | oto (9) |
| -y | oky (102) | ky (25) | ty (16) | oty (115) |
| -ey | okey (63) | key (14) | tey (11) | otey (57) |
| -eey | okeey (177) | keey (44) | teey (20) | oteey (140) |
| -eeey | okeeey (27) | keeey (11) | teeey (1) | oteeey (8) |
| -chey | okchey (32) | kchey (21) | tchey (22) | otchey (31) |
| -chy | okchy (39) | kchy (29) | tchy (24) | otchy (48) |
| -shy | okshy (10) | kshy (5) | tshy (5) | otshy (4) |
Torsten > 26-05-2026, 08:50 AM
(22-05-2026, 12:03 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why would a realistic copy-mutate system stay conservative? There is nothing that dictates this.
The number of rules observed over tens of thousands of words are quite complex, and they are indeed rules.
This is, in a way, backwards logic.
We see that the word variations are very strict. Therefore, if the text was generated by modifying previous words, it would have to have followed strict rules. That is the correct direction of the logic.
There is no reason to assume that there would be very strict rules (which are then broken somewhat gradually).
EDIT:
Let's do some rough counts.
The word chedy could be considered to have four characters.
Limiting to edit distance 1:
Each of these could be changed into another, leading to 4 times, say, 20 options.
Each of these could be deleted, leading to 4 more.
A new character could be added in each of 5 slots, so 5 times 20 more.
6 pairs could be swapped (not sure if that counts as edit distance 1).
We are close to 200 alternatives.
Possibly 10 exist.
We can consider two alternative methods for a creation of a meaningless text using word permutations.
Method A:
first, a vocabulary is set up using word patterns and their variations
then, a text is composed by somewhat aribitrarily picking words from this vocabulary/dictionary
Method B:
a text is generated by creating new words from previous ones 'on the fly'
then, the resulting vocabulary is the collection of all these words
It should be clear that the very limited set of allowed permutations much better fits with method A than method B.
ReneZ > 26-05-2026, 09:08 AM
(26-05-2026, 08:50 AM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The calculation of 200 possible edit-distance-1 modifications treats each EVA character as an independent substitutable unit. But the scribe doesn't work in EVA
Dunsel > 26-05-2026, 02:02 PM
(26-05-2026, 09:08 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My main point was that there are a great majority of possible changes that are (apparently) forbidden.
This existence of a very large set of relatively strict rules strongly suggests, that there is still something else going on. It is not just a matter of creating meaningless words based on small changes to previous words.
| Glyph | Prefix Followers | Midfix | Suffix |
|---|---|---|---|
| a | i r l m n t c | i l r m c d k o e f s p t y | r l m n s y d t i |
| c | h t k p f s o c | h k t p f | h o y |
| d | a o c y s e l k d i p t g r | a o e c s y l d r p | y a l s g o m d r |
| e | e t k s l c a o | o e a k c d s t y p f i | y o s n a e d r p g m t k |
| h | o e a c k d t y s h p r l i | y o e s l d a r m g h | |
| i | k | i r n k d t l o s m c e p | n r m s l t d y i |
| k | c o e s a y d | e h c o a s y d | y o a h g |
| l | o c s k y d t p | d o c a s k e t y f q p r | y s d o g a r m p |
| o | k t l r d p c e s a f i y m o q h | d k t l c r i e a s p o f y m q | l r s m d y t k g p n f o c e |
| q | o k e y c p | o | |
| r | o a c y n k s | a o c d i s e k r y | y o l e d g r |
| s | h o a c y e s k q f t | h a e c o s t k d | y h o e a s m n |
| t | c o e s a y d h | h c o e a s y d l | y o h a s |
| y | k t c d p s o f a e l | d k t c s p a e o | d s l r t |
| f | c o s a | h c o a y d s | y o |
| g | a | ||
| p | c o s y a d | h c o a y s d e | y |
| n | d o | y o d m e | |
| m | o a | a o d | o y m d g |
| x | |||
| v | o |
oshfdk > 26-05-2026, 02:43 PM
(26-05-2026, 02:02 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. A small legality system plus local copy-and-mutate behavior operating over a visible working set.