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Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
- Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
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RE: Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
Bernd > 16-03-2026, 08:42 PM
That's why it's so important to look at the original text and not a transcription. -
RE: Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
Aga Tentakulus > 16-03-2026, 08:57 PM
@Koen.
I think you're right.
In this case, “gas” seems to be the past tense of ‘essen’ (“to eat”), “gegessen”
In allemannisch "gäse" ich han gäse = ich habe gegessen. -
RE: Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
JoJo_Jost > 16-03-2026, 10:25 PM
That is why I fear that if the VMS is a text written in Bavarian, phonetically transcribed as was customary at the time, and then encrypted, it may be virtually impossible to decrypt it. Because if a single word can give rise to so many possibilities and interpretations... that is probably the sad truth...
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RE: Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
Torsten > 17-03-2026, 12:31 AM
(16-03-2026, 08:38 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My guess (as a non-native speaker) is that it should be "und do man as": "and as they ate". This follows from the rich man and the poor man having the "mittag mal" together. The OCR dreamed up the G.
The text is not from OCR of a manuscript. It is a Google scan of Adelbert von Keller's scholarly edition: Fastnachtspiele aus dem fünfzehnten Jahrhundert (Stuttgart, 1853). Keller was a philologist who read the manuscripts and produced a printed text. The "G" is what Keller printed: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Separately, the Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm has an entry for "Gänsemilch" that cites the same Folz Fastnachtspiel (page 1201). The Grimm editors describe it as appearing "in einem scherzhaften Recepte" — in a humorous recipe. The cited passage reads "gens milch" as two words, not as a single compound. The entry also notes the Low German parallel "hê verstêt dat gausemelken nich" — he doesn't understand goose-milking — meaning he doesn't know what he's doing. "Gôsemelker" is listed as an insult. (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
So the Grimm brothers' dictionary confirms that the passage is about "Gänsemilch" (goose milk), that the word is written as two separate words "gens milch," and that the context is comedy, not a real recipe. -
RE: Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
Aga Tentakulus > 17-03-2026, 01:15 AM
An einem Fastentag das geschah.
Das einem amen Mann zu sprach.
Ein ungenügend reicher Mann
Das Mittagsmal mit ihm zu haben
Dessen folgt der arme und da man gas (gegessen)
Der reiche den armen fragt in maasen. (mit wenig worten).
Des Himmelsreich sicher wer. (Wem ist das Himmelsreich sicher)
Einer der in grossen Reichtum schwebt,
oder der stehts in Armut lebt.
Der Witz
Wer kommt in den Himmel? Der arme wo isst oder der wo Essen spendet, und das an einem Fastentag.
Und wo ist die Gänsemilch?
This happened on a day of fasting.
A pious man was speaking.
A man of modest means
joined him for lunch.
The poor man followed him, and as they ate,
the rich man asked the poor man in few words:
To whom is the Kingdom of Heaven assured? (To whom is the Kingdom of Heaven assured?)
To one who lives in great wealth,
or to one who lives in constant poverty.
The joke
Who goes to heaven? The poor man who eats, or the one who provides food—and that on a day of fasting. -
RE: Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
Aga Tentakulus > 17-03-2026, 01:56 AM
Why not try using simple methods and explanations for once?
The “g,” as seen in poor-quality photos, copies, or transcripts. For example, the NSA report by Petersen. Polofsky.
I believed it for a long time too, but the sentence just doesn't make sense.
Just imagine that Writer 1 writes the letters close together and Writer 2 writes them a little further apart.
In both cases, you can still recognize the letter “z.” It’s the one with the two curves.
Basically the same thing.
If you look at the “g” in VM, it doesn’t have an upper curve, but it does have a straight back.
So the sentence is written just as it’s spoken.
For grammar, however, a small correction is needed
Now the sentence means:
“so the curse takes you too” or, near Vienna, “so the curse takes you in”
Jetzt bedeutet der Satz:
"so nimt der Fluch Dich auch" oder nähe Wien, "so nimt der Fluch Dich an"
"so nimez as mich o" (typisch Bayrisch)
For these reasons, it will never be a “g” for me. -
RE: Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
Koen G > 17-03-2026, 09:28 AM
Torsten: regarding gans milch, it's expected to find this written with a space, and maybe also without a space in other cases, why not? My point is that whatever "gasmich" is supposed to be, our best bet is to read it as one word. There is manuscript-internal evidence that the marginalia writer uses short-s word-finally.
About the attestation: how would you translate the sentence? Do you think the best reading is as "quickly"?
An einem vastag das geschach
Das einem armen man zu sprach
Ein vngenügig reicher man
Das mittag mal mit im zu han
Des volgt der arm vnd do man gas
Der reich gem armen frag aus mas
Welcher stant hie doch angefer
Des himelreichs sicherer wer
Einr der in grossem reichtum swept
Oder der steet in armut lept
Having looked at it a bit more, I'm starting to suspect is should be a form of "gân" (gehen).
On a fast day it happened
That a poor man spoke to
an insatiable (?) rich man
to have the noon meal with him
he followed the poor man, and as they walked,
the rich man asked the poor man etc... -
RE: Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
Torsten > 17-03-2026, 10:43 AM
(17-03-2026, 09:28 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Torsten: regarding gans milch, it's expected to find this written with a space, and maybe also without a space in other cases, why not? My point is that whatever "gasmich" is supposed to be, our best bet is to read it as one word. There is manuscript-internal evidence that the marginalia writer uses short-s word-finally.
About the attestation: how would you translate the sentence? Do you think the best reading is as "quickly"?
This is a misunderstanding. I do not read "gâs" with circumflex and long-s in the same way as "gas" without circumflex and short-s. I never claimed that this specific "gas" in Folz means "gâhes" (swiftly). I presented it as a counterexample for the spelling — the form "gas" with a short-s exists in a 15th-century text. My point was the existence of the letter sequence, not the meaning in this particular passage.
My arguments for "gâs" as "swiftly" rest on separate evidence:
1) The Althochdeutsches Wörterbuch lists "gâs" as a contracted form of "gâhez" (swiftly, at once): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
2) The Mittelniederdeutsches Wörterbuch has a separate dictionary entry: "¹gâs, gâes, adv., s. gâ, schnell, rasch, plötzlich, jäh." You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
3) Three instances of "gâs" with circumflex and long-s from "Athis und Prophilias," a verse romance preserved in a manuscript from the third quarter of the 13th century in Hessian-Thuringian dialect (Berlin, Staatsbibl., Nachlass Grimm 196; Krakow, Bibl. Jagiellońska, Berol. mgq 846; edition: Kraus 1926; Handschriftencensus: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
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RE: Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
Koen G > 17-03-2026, 11:42 AM
- The cutoff point for Althochdeutsch is given as 1050. There's half a millennium between whatever was relevant then and 15th century.
- Mittelniederdeutsch is relevant if one argues the dialect is Middle Low German. It would also be useful to see how this is attested.
- For the 13th century attestations, I explained how spelling conventions changed from then to the 15th century, and how this is relevant for word-final long-s.
My confusion came from how you presented all the "gas" attestations as evidence, while they are not all the same word... The occurrence and spelling of some form of "gehen" as "gas" is not relevant for the argument that it could be a contraction of "gahes". - The cutoff point for Althochdeutsch is given as 1050. There's half a millennium between whatever was relevant then and 15th century.
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RE: Huth's reading of f116v: "gâs" as "ganz" confirmed in medieval German corpus
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 17-03-2026, 12:28 PM
(17-03-2026, 09:28 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]
An einem vastag das geschach
Das einem armen man zu sprach
Ein vngenügig reicher man
Das mittag mal mit im zu han
Des volgt der arm vnd do man gas
Der reich gem armen frag aus mas
Welcher stant hie doch angefer
Des himelreichs sicherer wer
Einr der in grossem reichtum swept
Oder der steet in armut lept
Having looked at it a bit more, I'm starting to suspect is should be a form of "gân" (gehen).
On a fast day it happened
That a poor man spoke to
an insatiable (?) rich man
to have the noon meal with him
he followed the poor man, and as they walked,
the rich man asked the poor man etc...
Do you have the source text here?
Looks like it is more „des folgt der arm und so man gas“
as well as „welcher stant hie doch angeher“ (welchem Stand er angehört = which estate he belongs to).
„so man gas“ would be a hint to „so man ging“ (as they walked), but is quite an unusual form.