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extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
- extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
-
extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
Davidsch > 14-04-2016, 11:32 AM
I tried to find a solution of the displayed (extra?) 5 and 4 ladies
outside the circles but found only one possible solution in Mandean calender.
"Besides their New Year’s Day, Mandaeans also celebrate on the 22nd of May and they feast during the five days that immediately follow the Iranian New Year’s Day, the 21st of March (the 20th in leap years). " (source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
Related pages in the VMS:
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and
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and
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Then i investigated the Mandean people and culture and analysed the language with help of a Mandean Professor,
but nothing really matched, although the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. direction was interesting because of the water rituals.
The solution on the zodiacs might be found there on the extra 5 and 4 ladies. -
RE: extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
Anton > 14-04-2016, 01:52 PM
They may be called "extra" only in the sense of the word that they are drawn in the outside. They are not "extra" in terms of numbers.
Since the number of figures in concentric circles is not consistent - e.g. the inner circle contains 9 figures for Gemini, 7 figures for Cancer or 10 for Libra - I think that the author just added outer circles according to the inner circles' space depletion, and those extraneous ladies just represent yet another (incomplete) outer circle. -
RE: extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
Davidsch > 14-04-2016, 03:46 PM
Quote:...and those extraneous ladies just represent yet another (incomplete) outer circle.
So what you are saying is, this could be "planning error" during creation of these circles.
I see no corrections in the drawings.
All drawings are made correct and seem to have had some planning.
If the 4 or 5 ladies did not fit inside the circles by accident, why are these the only 3 pictures in the entire vms where such a thing happened ?
Do you have seen other examples of circular zodiac manuscript drawing where such a thing happened also ?
If you look at the
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you see that the circle perhaps was too small. The author made the next circle f72r3 a little bigger and then they all fit inside.
If you look here
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You will see there is plenty of room in the circles for at least 1 extra woman in each circle.
So why are there here 4 ladies outside again ? And not 3, or 2 or six ? -
RE: extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
Anton > 14-04-2016, 06:40 PM
Quote:So what you are saying is, this could be "planning error" during creation of these circles.
I see no corrections in the drawings.
All drawings are made correct and seem to have had some planning.
If the 4 or 5 ladies did not fit inside the circles by accident, why are these the only 3 pictures in the entire vms where such a thing happened ?
My idea is not exactly about planning errors, but rather that the author did not care too much about all figures fitting in two circles. "If they fit - that's OK, if they don't - no problem, we'll add them on the top".
I think that his essential task was to depict the given number of labeled (!) figures, and the circumstance that they sometimes did not fit into two circles did not bother him much.
Quote:Do you have seen other examples of circular zodiac manuscript drawing where such a thing happened also ?
No.
Quote:If you look here
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You will see there is plenty of room in the circles for at least 1 extra woman in each circle.
So why are there here 4 ladies outside again ? And not 3, or 2 or six ?
Yes. But if we assume that the ladies are labeled as they are depicted, then there is no that spare room anymore.
In the Sagittarius page, the sequence of the outer circle is likely to have begun from the odees lady. Note that then they clockwise are pretty tight to each other, while the last sheol lady has some increased room between herself and the odees lady, but not sufficient to hold one more lady. Same thing for the inner circle.
The number of the "outside" ladies just results by deducting the number of "inside" ones from 29 or from 30 which looks like a pre-defined total for each month (?). -
RE: extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
Davidsch > 07-05-2016, 12:21 PM
Quote:Anton:
.. rather that the author did not care too much about all figures fitting in two circles
... sometimes did not fit into two circles did not bother him much.
If i sum up what you are writing about the zodiac ladies outside, is that the author is just a sloppy bad planner.
Looking at the text we see nice flowing lines, placed around plants and, although not 'hanging' or 'sitting' on a line, placed as straight as possible on the page.
Almost no text errors, wipes or strike-throughs. Every page starts on the first or second position nicely with a gallow character and words have been "build" around a specific pattern. Many hours are spent on small details in the drawings, for example the cosmo drawings, the Rosette page a.o. The circles on the zodiac pages, as well as the cosmo-pages, are round and not egg-shaped for example. The placement of most circles and other pictures seems to be choosen carefully in the middle of the folio, and not on the edge for example (can also be seen on some pages). The author is not sloppy.
These observations that the author actually is a good planner and knows what he wants to do and how he wants to show that, and actually is caring about the manuscript in detail, shows me that the placement of the ladies outside must have another explanation. -
RE: extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
-JKP- > 07-05-2016, 12:33 PM
(14-04-2016, 03:46 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:...and those extraneous ladies just represent yet another (incomplete) outer circle.
...
Do you have seen other examples of circular zodiac manuscript drawing where such a thing happened also ?
...
Not in zodiac drawings, but I have a couple of "heavenly hosts" drawings where a smaller set of figures has been added across the top. Unfortunately, I can't remember what I named the files and can't seem to find them. If they show up, I'll post at least one of them. -
RE: extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
Anton > 07-05-2016, 11:35 PM
Quote:If i sum up what you are writing about the zodiac ladies outside, is that the author is just a sloppy bad planner.
Well as I argued above, to have a plan and fail to implement it is one thing and to not have a plan at all is another. My opinion is that there was no plan intended in the Zodiac pages to have all ladies fit; the plan in place was just that to depict the fixed number of ladies. -
RE: extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
Davidsch > 09-05-2016, 03:20 PM
Let's assume there is a purpose to place the ladies outside, then i see these possibilities:
The ladies have a special meaning that is in line with what they represent, for example
* they represent days: there is a special feast during those days (many religions have "special" days of celibration or mourning etc.)
* they are special stars
* they are special goddess
* they represent special herbs
or other references
are there more suggestions -
RE: extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
VViews > 18-02-2017, 02:54 PM
I've looked at the labels near the extra nymphs on Gemini, Scorpio and Sagittarius and noticed a few things.
- The label vords near the Gemini extra nymphs are rare, three out of five are unique and the others only occur once or twice elsewhere.
- The four extra Scorpio nymph labels are much more common, occurring 9, 21, 118 and 11 times each.
- The same is true of the four labels on Sagittarius (83, 39, 39, and 89 occurences) but here there is an additional feature to note: the two middle nymphs have the same label. AFAIK it is unusual to have two consecutive nymphs with the same label.
I wonder what could account for the features of the extra nymphs' labels being so different in these three folios. -
RE: extra 4 or 5 ladies in zodiac pages
Diane > 20-02-2017, 01:54 AM
VViews,
This is a very interesting observation. I'm tempted to turn to texts on comparative astronomies and compare the star-names for these constellations to see if there are any comparable frequencies; no chance of having that sort of time free at present
One thought - it might prove useful to start with those items in common, or distinct, in the three constellations as envisaged e.g. in the Mediterranean world. All three have heads, but Scorpius has no arms or feet and neither (in the list of star-names used by the Latins) does Scorpius have feet, but hooves. So the term 'claws' would be the least common among all the names for stars in those 12 constellations (if they are to be imagined a zodiac).
Depending on which sections include the repetitions - it might be of interest to members that we have record of annual efforts to predict where and when certain plants and goods would be abundant. A table (sometimes called by the Latins an 'abacus') was formed of 9x27 (or 9x28) little trays, the '27/28' being the divisions of the ecliptic, and thus of the year. So if the repetitions are most common in the botanical section, then the labels might also refer to goods.
A third possibility, and one that might appeal especially to those who read my detailed investigation of the Voynich map (first posts in 2010-11), or those interested in Claudius Ptolemy's updated version of the work by Marinus of Tyre, is that since every place on a gridded earth has its equivalent position in a gridded sky, so the labelling 'vords' on these figures might be place-names. Taking into account the seasonal nature of stars, crops, and markets, and the Occitan inscriptions naming months, not constellations, so that might also be a useful avenue to investigate.
Having now spent a number of years doing that sort of investigation (between ten hours and three weeks' work lies behind most of the voynichimagery posts), I perfectly understand if others think it's just too much work to find time for, themselves.
I should also keep in mind that the nau' of a star was that which set when it rose, and vice-versa. (At least we think so). So for technical reasons to do with other matter in the ms... one might also consider which stars, in sequence, appear opposite those of Gemini etc. The matter is complicated by there having been conventional 'opposites' well-known to non-Latins. e.g. the heart of Scorpius (Antares) is the proverbial opposite for Orion, and Orion is proverbially the marker of the East, though it is the Pleiades rather than Scorpius which has represented 'West' from time immemorial.
I mention this last matter because the same sets of 'opposed' stars serve as cardinal markers in one of the Voynich astronomical diagrams.
D.