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Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola)
- Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola)
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RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams...
Jorge_Stolfi > 29-01-2026, 09:23 PM
(29-01-2026, 09:16 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also frequently argued against the notion (maybe introduced by Nick Pelling?) that the parallel hatching in the MS showed familiarity with renaissance techniques. While it's still not the subtle cross-hatching we get in later artists, there may have been more truth to that idea than I thought. It does seem to be mimicking drawing techniques straight from a renaissance source.
I have a solution for this "hatching problem", but unfortunately I am not allowed to mention it here...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams...
DG97EEB > 29-01-2026, 09:25 PM
(29-01-2026, 09:16 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(29-01-2026, 08:54 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But the dates of Taccola's work then would imply that the VMS was written on a stash of vellum that was decades old, at least...
Many implications of this connection go against my personal beliefs about the VM. But those are worthless in the face of new evidence.
I wouldn't necessarily say decades old. Making a copy doesn't take more than a year, so if any copies were made, those could have already been elsewhere before 1435 and within the radiocarbon dated range. But yes, it's later than I would have thought.
I also frequently argued against the notion (maybe introduced by Nick Pelling?) that the parallel hatching in the MS showed familiarity with renaissance techniques. While it's still not the subtle cross-hatching we get in later artists, there may have been more truth to that idea than I thought. It does seem to be mimicking drawing techniques straight from a renaissance source.
Doesn't it feel like we're getting to a place though that if it weren't for the text itself, this would really be a run of the mill zibaldone/hausbuch or am I oversimplifying?
(29-01-2026, 09:23 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(29-01-2026, 09:16 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also frequently argued against the notion (maybe introduced by Nick Pelling?) that the parallel hatching in the MS showed familiarity with renaissance techniques. While it's still not the subtle cross-hatching we get in later artists, there may have been more truth to that idea than I thought. It does seem to be mimicking drawing techniques straight from a renaissance source.
I have a solution for this "hatching problem", but unfortunately I am not allowed to mention it here...
All the best, --stolfi
Does it involve AI or Da Vinci? ?? -
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola)
Jorge_Stolfi > 29-01-2026, 09:32 PM
(29-01-2026, 09:25 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does it involve AI or Da Vinci? ??
Worse. It calls for an army of djinns sneaking into a bibliophile's home at night and doing lots of supernatural things with nothing more than a quill and some magical ink...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams...
Koen G > 29-01-2026, 09:34 PM
(29-01-2026, 09:25 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Doesn't it feel like we're getting to a place though that if it weren't for the text itself, this would really be a run of the mill zibaldone/hausbuch or am I oversimplifying?
We have some idea of the kinds of sources that were probably used, but we still have no idea about what it did with those sources.
The difference now is that we suddenly have a potential source that's an early 1430's autograph by an Italian renaissance man. That's a step up from "this image of a lady with a cane must have come from the amorphous pool of imagery that circulated in a broad area".
We still don't know what it did with those images. My current early hypothesis is that the VM makers had concepts of a plan, and for that required (or had) a source with illustrations of all kinds of water works. Possibly this very book. They integrated material from that into their new composition - of which we still don't know the purpose.
Since things like Hausbuchs and moralizing works were about as common as it gets, I don't see a problem in a combination of sources. -
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams...
DG97EEB > 29-01-2026, 09:43 PM
(29-01-2026, 09:34 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(29-01-2026, 09:25 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Doesn't it feel like we're getting to a place though that if it weren't for the text itself, this would really be a run of the mill zibaldone/hausbuch or am I oversimplifying?
We have some idea of the kinds of sources that were probably used, but we still have no idea about what it did with those sources.
The difference now is that we suddenly have a potential source that's an early 1430's autograph by an Italian renaissance man. That's a step up from "this image of a lady with a cane must have come from the amorphous pool of imagery that circulated in a broad area".
We still don't know what it did with those images. My current early hypothesis is that the VM makers had concepts of a plan, and for that required (or had) a source with illustrations of all kinds of water works. Possibly this very book. They integrated material from that into their new composition - of which we still don't know the purpose.
Since things like Hausbuchs and moralizing works were about as common as it gets, I don't see a problem in a combination of sources.
I get that, and everything is always obvious in retrospect, but I don't think we're fundamentally disagreeing, but it's easy to agree with the current state of evidence..and the ease with which that evidence is now available...that's the big difference really.. as more and more catalogues become digitised, narrowing the field ought to be easier and easier... We live in amazing times.. -
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola)
DG97EEB > 29-01-2026, 09:57 PM
Btw, Taccola was from Siena, which was Ghibelline...
This is a link to all digitised materials in the Galileo museum You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I'm sure I'm just seeing things now but I look at this (which is an aquaduct) and see Rosettes.. this is the second link.. -
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola)
Koen G > 29-01-2026, 09:57 PM
Here is the first part of the same work by Taccola: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Much of it is about siege engines, but there are also some tubes. Basically, whenever it involves water, it's something to look out for. These are not meant as parallels, but rather to show the inspiration again:
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RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams... (by Taccola)
MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 29-01-2026, 09:58 PM
Sorry to say, Koen G., but none of these work for me. They all seem like coincidental and overstretched reasoning. Just because pipes are showing waters or other things flowing does not mean it was the first time they were depicted as such. I think you are engaging in some pareidolia here. Why did not he copy the VM instead, even if that was the case, which I doubt?
I liked your (and Cary Rapaport) article much much better and will later explain why (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). I think that article made a significant contribution yet to be recognized and appreciated. So, don't give up on previous insights, please. -
RE: Palatino 766 pipes, pools, cliffs, streams...
R. Sale > 29-01-2026, 10:00 PM
Nice stuff! At the same time, go ahead and make your own drawing of a pipe with water coming out. Not a lot of artistic options.
Is that an example of allegorical interpretation, if the VMs artist 'mistakes' the illustration of an aqueduct for a rainbow? Or repurposes it??