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Three arguments in favor of an Arabic/Persian-inspired women's health manual
- Three arguments in favor of an Arabic/Persian-inspired women's health manual
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RE: Three arguments in favor of an Arabic/Persian-inspired women's health manual
deadmoon > 15-01-2026, 10:21 PM
(10-01-2026, 10:43 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is amazing, thank you so much. It's fascinating how we both came to the conclusion of Hammams. However I do not see any mention of Qanats in the work you generously provided. Perhaps this could be tested by an expert in medieval Arabic baths?
Diplomats, and by extension, their courts and families, would have had exposure to foreign cultures and also cipher techniques.
In any case it is a fascinating read. Could it really be, that the VM was somehow inspired by Arabic culture? If so, this could narrow down the search space for the author considerably.
This would mean that we are looking for someone who:
- Lived or operated in or nearby the South German/Tyrolian region (poxleber and other marginalia strongly suggest a German language origin in the Tyrolian region), and
- Someone who visited or had knowledge of Hammams, either from an Arabic book, or an in-person visit to one.
To my knowledge not many people fit such a description. Any ideas?
Some of the notable glyphs in the VMS, among many variants and many more irrelevant glyphs, appear in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. possibly written in Syria in the 15th century
gallows (103v, 106v)
partial gallows (92r, 93v)
q/4/gallows with wild flourishes (42v, 48v)
4o/qo (29v)
ligatured c's (29v)
LJS 51(3420 Walnut Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104-6206, University of Pennsylvania, Kislak Center for Special Collections, Rare Books and Manuscripts) - Lived or operated in or nearby the South German/Tyrolian region (poxleber and other marginalia strongly suggest a German language origin in the Tyrolian region), and
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RE: Three arguments in favor of an Arabic/Persian-inspired women's health manual
JustAnotherTheory > 16-01-2026, 10:26 AM
(15-01-2026, 10:21 PM)deadmoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.gallows (103v, 106v)
partial gallows (92r, 93v)
q/4/gallows with wild flourishes (42v, 48v)
4o/qo (29v)
ligatured c's (29v)
LJS 51(3420 Walnut Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104-6206, University of Pennsylvania, Kislak Center for Special Collections, Rare Books and Manuscripts)
Incredible find! What is the opinion/consensus for these striking matches to the VMS characters? Any historian care to comment on this? -
RE: Three arguments in favor of an Arabic/Persian-inspired women's health manual
MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 16-01-2026, 04:43 PM
@ JustAnotherTheory and @deadmoon. Thanks for your continued efforts and materials shared.
Regarding the source deadmoon shared, the few similar symbols are interesting, but amid all others, I think some may be coincidentally similar.
The overall sense I am getting from that incomplete text in Arabic is that the author is sharing conversations he is having and reporting on about matters, and he is using ciphers to quote them. Those signs are not usual Arabic Abjad letters in most parts. There are some abjad too, but most of the paragraphs with symbols are ciphers, in the sense that he is quoting people in a way that could not be read easily by others, some material may be astrological or geomantic.
What is remotely possible is that the Voynich author, or her experts, who may have access to Arabic or Persian astrological (or botanical) sources, borrowed some symbols from them for their own purpose. I doubt there is anything more going on here (some sample glyphs or similarities deadmoon was linking may be the following, I share them to make it easier for forum readers).
I transcribed some text randomly in Arabic (some are illegible), and had google translate it to English as below. Despite imperfections, it gives a sense of what is going in that book deadmoon shared.
نحست بع تعب حتى ظننتُ انّى لا اقدرحله و هو احتج حضيمى و احتجحت تحجتى اقلحت فى حححى و خاب المحتجج و الصواب الفلجت بجيم و ليست و اقلحت بالحا الممله و انما تصحفت قطنها فحلت تقالا فلج بحجتة و كتب لى ابن الفبا قلى
فغذوت محزونا اذوت صبابة ثكلان قد فضب العدى بهوانى و ل كتب الشيخ شهاب الدين المترجم للمخدوم بسط الله ظلاله قحله
ثم كتب لى شمس الدين اب الرضى المذكور
فحللتها بحضوره سريعاً لسهولته و هى اذا جادت الدنيا عليك فحبها على النّاس طرّا انها تتقلب فلا الجود يقينها اذا هى قبلت و لا البخل يبقتها اذا هى تذهب و كتب لى ناصر الدين ابن الطوسى
Google translated:
I felt so tired that I thought I couldn't bear it, and he protested against my argument, and I presented my counter-argument. I failed in my attempt, and the protester was disappointed. The correct answer was with the letter 'jim', not 'waw', and I failed with the letter 'ha' (the heavy one), but its meaning was distorted, so I solved it with an argument, and Ibn al-Faba wrote to me.
So I became sorrowful, consumed by longing, bereaved, for the enemy had triumphed over me with humiliation. And Sheikh Shihab al-Din, the translator for the esteemed one (may God extend his blessings), wrote to me.
Then Shams al-Din Abu al-Rida, the aforementioned, wrote to me.
I solved it quickly in his presence because of its ease, and it is: When the world is generous to you, share its bounty with all people, for it is ever-changing. Neither generosity guarantees its permanence when it comes, nor does stinginess preserve it when it departs. And Nasir al-Din Ibn al-Tusi wrote to me … -
RE: Three arguments in favor of an Arabic/Persian-inspired women's health manual
JustAnotherTheory > 16-01-2026, 06:04 PM
That is so useful. Thank you. It's good to have an Arabic speakker in this forum. -
RE: Three arguments in favor of an Arabic/Persian-inspired women's health manual
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 19-01-2026, 10:47 PM
(08-01-2026, 11:06 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]
Argument 1: The balneary section (the baths) are depictions of 15th century Hammams
A Hammam is basically an Arabic bathhouse. It features many advanced technologies[..]
Nothing about the VMS baths and water tubes gives really any "advanced" impression. Some ponds look even natural, some baths are (simple) constructed. None of the tubes would really work, including those which are manipulated by some ladies.
JustAnotherTheory Wrote:Argument 2: The containers and vessels might depict contemporary Persian oil lamps
Maybe. I am a friend of the "vessels" interpretation. But some of those vessels are, by design, as far from practical use as lamps as from being a tower or pillar.
JustAnotherTheory Wrote:Argument 3: An Arabic or Arabic-inspired women's health manual would be worth encrypting to avoid persecution
Women's health was already a taboo at that time,[..] So a book on this subject, especially with foreign (non-Christian) origin or inspiration, would definitely be a cause for enciphering its contents.
[..]
So, could it be that the VM is inspired by Arabic women's health secrets? Or perhaps a translation from an Arabic health manuscript? What do you think?
I learned that there are about 500+ drawn figures, most of them naked women.
If someone intends to move with this manuscript inside a kind of prude or orthodox-religious or anyhow restricted society, showing ~500 (exotic) nudies, that would grant him persecution and some encrypted text would be his smallest problem then.
Would be like watching a porn and really caring for the dialogues, not so much for the visible action...