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Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
- Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
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RE: Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
JoJo_Jost > 03-01-2026, 08:33 AM
Based on the contexts offered so far, it is simply very difficult to explain why these vessels on this page correspond to the others on later pages.
Doing so will be difficult. You have to bend a lot of things, and I think you can see that. So, maybe the basic assumptions made so far are completely wrong – that's how it is in science – when you realise that you have to interpret too much to explain a fact, you should go back to the basic assumption and find one that fits better.
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RE: Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
Rafal > 03-01-2026, 12:31 PM
Quote:What is true, however, is that the author could have come from anywhere. But the fact that there are almost no Christian symbols throughout the manuscript does not necessarily mean that the author was not a Christian. It is more likely due to non-religious themes.
I would add that he probably wasn't very religious.
We have a strong hypothesis that at the page f85r2 he mistakes rosary for some chain:
We don't know the original manuscript that was his inspiration, we only know its "cousins". But a religious man would recognize a rosary no matter how imprecise it was drawn.
I would say it's a stereotype that everyone was religious in middle ages. Sure, there weren't officially declared atheists. But there were certainly people who simply didn't care, didn't go to church and didn't know religious symbolism. -
RE: Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
Antonio García Jiménez > 03-01-2026, 01:30 PM
To stay on topic, I think that Bluetoes101's study of medieval pottery, which has confirmed that the objects in the central circle of the Rosettes are some kind of vessel, is not being given enough attention.
Comparing these objects with the vessels from the so-called pharmaceutical section could lead to the same conclusion, but it is preferable that this detailed analysis confirms that they are not towers.
I believe everything has an explanation within medieval astrology. -
RE: Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 03-01-2026, 02:11 PM
(03-01-2026, 12:57 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(02-01-2026, 11:37 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.if there are only five towers
There are six, actually. Arranged in a hexagon. One is mostly hidden, but its spire shows above the "starry sky".
All the best, --stolfi
I had seen that.
I meant that there are „solutions“ upon maps of Constantinople where only five pillars (in an absolute „pillar look“, nothing onion-like) can be found. Some do not care much about 5 or 6 at all. -
RE: Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
Koen G > 03-01-2026, 04:16 PM
Bluetoes: I agree that some aspects of the items can only point towards vessels. But I also see why some people see these as towers, since in most cases the base is quite thick. If the VM images were crystal-clear, we wouldn't be so confused about them
As I've said before, I think that for whatever reason the word "ciborium" with its two meanings lies at the basis of the central Rosette.
The most similar vessels I've found, especially to the rightmost one, are ciboriums, lidded chalices for holding the host.
Some links:
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Here's a late 15th century example from Siena, showing more architectural possibilities: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(Although these may be developments that are too late to have any relevance for the VM).
So it gets interesting when you also take into account the other meaning of "ciborium", which is "(2) A canopy resting on columns over the altar." -
RE: Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
nablator > 03-01-2026, 05:36 PM
(03-01-2026, 04:16 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So it gets interesting when you also take into account the other meaning of "ciborium", which is "(2) A canopy resting on columns over the altar."
Coincidentally (or not) supported by 6 columns in the church of the Holy Sepulchre (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., f. 51v, ca. 1469/70):
Many towers with onion or bulb-shaped roofs in Jerusalem:
Map of Jerusalem, last quarter of the 15th century: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
bi3mw > 03-01-2026, 06:11 PM
(03-01-2026, 05:36 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Many towers with onion or bulb-shaped roofs in Jerusalem:
Good find, @Nablator! I guess I was wrong about there being nothing to find.
Note on the book cover:
Sketch [bird's-eye view] of the city of Jerusalem, allegedly by Sebald Rieter, who made a pilgrimage there from Nuremberg with Hans Tucher in 1479, cf. Cgm 24.
So the author has therefore been to Jerusalem himself.
Here is another (not quite as good) example of a view of Jerusalem. At least two temples also have onion domes.
Date Issued: 1486
Place: Mainz
Publisher: Erhard Reuwich
Rare Book Division, The New York Public Library. "View of Jerusalem" The New York Public Library Digital Collections. 1486.
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Here is a very nice 3D representation of the Voynich Manuscript Rosettes by @proto57.
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RE: Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
Bluetoes101 > 03-01-2026, 11:17 PM
I am only "fairly confident" after all
The drawer makes my brain hurt in most areas of the VMS. And it should also be noted that they for some reason mix and match building/vessel details.
There are time correct vessels that have building inspired finials (like a roof with flags), or just whole vessels made to look like something else, a castle for example.
Currently I have no clue if any of that is relevant, I'm just slowly building up a catalogue of examples and ideas. I just thought I'd chip in here because on the face of it, I think overall it swings more to vessel than tower - However "The drawer makes my brain hurt in most areas of the VMS"
Doing a "cannonball" into the deep end of speculation, I think people are right in thinking "map". But I don't think it is a map of a place we will find, but maybe an event, or abstract idea. Its fun to speculate, like is 6+sky for the 6 days god created everything, or do we have the 7 vessels of the plagues and the map shows the events of 1 with 6 to go, or maybe it is a holy pilgrimage to somewhere like the cave of the patriarchs where 6 holy figures have their (supposed) tombs/remains, or were the planets of the solar system split into 6 and they wanted to show or something based on this.. you can go on.
The truth atm though is I have no clue what these vessels are in pharma, I started with the plain ones which I think are likely just apothecary vessels for storing things like powders made from herbs, and the ones I am looking at atm are the plain ones + feet, which I think may be tripod burners, either for incense or perfume (the bit I've been stuck on for a while), the more flamboyant ones will follow and it would be cool if that identification adds something to the ROS conversation in some way, though I'm not holding my breath
Either way, if they are holding up/come down from the sky/cosmos, I guess they were very important thingys for whoever drew them.
- Also it is cool to see the ROS in that way on the YT vid! -
RE: Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
Jorge_Stolfi > 03-01-2026, 11:59 PM
(03-01-2026, 01:30 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think that Bluetoes101's study of medieval pottery, which has confirmed that the objects in the central circle of the Rosettes are some kind of vessel ... Comparing these objects with the vessels from the so-called pharmaceutical section could lead to the same conclusion, but it is preferable that this detailed analysis confirms that they are not towers.
I don't think that this conclusion is confirmed at all. In summary:
- Only some of the pharma jars (the real ones, and the VMS Pharma drawings) resemble Russian onion-dome towers. To the same extent that the Zodiac stars resemble flowers, and the f68v3 diagram resembles a spiral Galaxy.
- Whereas all six objects in the central rosette resemble Russian onion-dome towers. And not vaguely, but as closely as one can expect from the Scribe. Including the right proportion between the girth of the dome and the width of the tower.
- It would be weird to conceive the center of the Universe (or whatever is depicted in the Rosette's page) as a circle of six medicine jars. Whereas a circle of six towers would be quite natural.
- Comparing to the other objects on that page, those six things would be maybe a hundred meters tall. Ridiculously huge for medicine jars; but normal, even banal, for towers at the Navel of the World...
The "problem" with this identification is that Medieval Russian-style onion domes apparently existed only in Russia and Ukraine.
Onion domes are seen also in Iran, Pakistan, and nearby places. Check the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in Pakstan, for example. Compare the details of the topping spires with the VMS -- the inverted trumpet shape, the transfixed ball...
In fact, I have seen claims that the Medieval Russians borrowed the style from Persia. However, those NE Asian domes are smooth, not ribbed like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- and the Rosettes' ones.
So I still think they are towers...
All the best, --stolfi - Only some of the pharma jars (the real ones, and the VMS Pharma drawings) resemble Russian onion-dome towers. To the same extent that the Zodiac stars resemble flowers, and the f68v3 diagram resembles a spiral Galaxy.
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RE: Six onion-roof towers supporting heavens
Koen G > 04-01-2026, 12:04 AM
Can you show me any building with the proportions of the rightmost "tower"?