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Cataloging manuscripts depicting women that look "Voynich-y"
- Cataloging manuscripts depicting women that look "Voynich-y"
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Cataloging manuscripts depicting women that look "Voynich-y"
stopsquark > 02-01-2026, 06:54 AM
Specifically, I'm looking for depictions of women that have red cheeks, attire or hairstyle similar to those in the MS, and/or facial/body structure depicted similarly as in the MS.
I've found a lot of good candidates in southern Germany, particularly in the Cod. Pal. Lat. fonds of the Vatican Library (which was originally the collection of Heidelberg).
I'm attaching pictures of two pretty strong resemblances. The first is Cod. Pal. Lat 1726, a "Mythological Miscellany" manuscript.
Note in particular the "nymph-like" lady in repose, together with doves that look kind of like the bird we see in the VMS:
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And the heavenly squiggle clouds.
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The posed people on the left hand pages also appear similar to the "Gemini" page of the VMS, which I believe someone (I think Koen?) has traced back to a possible link with manuscripts of the Wigelaf romance. But that's another post
The other, Cod. Pal. Lat. 1709 is an miscellany manuscript that contains a lot of astronomical and mythological illustrations.
Here is one of the Biblical plagues:
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(So maybe this is Moses and not a woman- but still, note the crown and cheeks)
Here is one depicting the influences of different planets:
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What other MSs like this have you found, and where are they from?[url=Google.com][/url] -
RE: Cataloging manuscripts depicting women that look "Voynich-y"
Antonio García Jiménez > 02-01-2026, 10:19 AM
Another brick in the wall for the Germanic origin of the Voynich -
RE: Cataloging manuscripts depicting women that look "Voynich-y"
Koen G > 02-01-2026, 12:19 PM
I agree that these manuscripts have very Voynich-like figures, especially the first one. It's been discussed before on a couple of occasions, though this was long ago. It's nice to be reminded of it.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (looking back at it, I think that Diogenes parallel was really strong, split beard and all).
For some reason, my heuristics just rarely lead me to the Vatican archives, even though there's a wealth of manuscripts there.
Now for your question about stylistics. This comes up sometimes, but answering it is harder than you'd think. We can find human figures that are somewhat similar in a wide range of places and times. (I remember David once tried to argue for Spain, and Panofsky thought they were Spanish or "southern" because he saw a Flemish influence). Blushed cheeks are the worst indicator: name a country and you'll find that they depicted people with red dots on the cheeks at one point.
So the first task would be to define what exactly we're looking for, and then check where that's found. I tried it a couple of times, but the task proved too astronomical and I always gave up quickly.
What remains is to give some subjective assessment, and then I'd say the most similar figures are found anywhere people spoke German, including bordering regions. -
RE: Cataloging manuscripts depicting women that look "Voynich-y"
R. Sale > 02-01-2026, 10:42 PM
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RE: Cataloging manuscripts depicting women that look "Voynich-y"
ReneZ > 02-01-2026, 11:59 PM
(02-01-2026, 12:19 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For some reason, my heuristics just rarely lead me to the Vatican archives, even though there's a wealth of manuscripts there.
As is probably generally known, the Pal.Lat. collection originally comes from Heidelberg, and there is also an access point to the digital scans at the Heidelberg University:
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For some reason, this collection has been complete (or at last mostly complete) for quite a long time, while the Vatican collection is lagging behind. -
RE: Cataloging manuscripts depicting women that look "Voynich-y"
stopsquark > 03-01-2026, 08:08 AM
In the spirit of Diogenes, I propose a "featherless biped with broad flat nails" characterization of a VMS figure:
- The head is always drawn at an angle somewhere between profile and facing the viewer- never in profile, and never straight on (unless we're talking about astronomical faces). Both eyes are always visible.
- The body is also drawn at an angle between profile and facing the viewer- figures are always going "left" or "right". The head is angled toward the viewer slightly more than the body is.
- Head is often too large or too small for the body. Proportions are generally uncanny.
- Face is taller than it is wide
- Face has a distinct chin
- The nose and the eyebrow in the "forward" direction are drawn with a single shared line-stroke. This often connects to the forehead curve, but does not always.
- Small mouth, small simple eyes (dots, 'c's, or circles)
- Red cheeks, red lips
- Thin linework
There are other traits that are common but not universal (nude- some zodiac nymphs are clothed, while some, as on the first April page, are somehow simultaneously nude and clothed).
Does this seem like a good description of what we're looking for, or are there other characteristically Votnichy traits that I'm missing? - The head is always drawn at an angle somewhere between profile and facing the viewer- never in profile, and never straight on (unless we're talking about astronomical faces). Both eyes are always visible.
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RE: Cataloging manuscripts depicting women that look "Voynich-y"
Jorge_Stolfi > 03-01-2026, 10:35 PM
(03-01-2026, 08:08 AM)stopsquark Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Face is taller than it is wide
Generally yes, although some are close to round. Like f72r2 (Gemini) inner 11:00, f72r3 (Cancer) outer 10:45 and middle 01:00, and f72v2 (Virgo) inner 08:00.
Quote:Face has a distinct chin
Again, generally true, but there are many exceptions.
Also I suspect that some faces with long odd shapes were originally rounder but were later modified by lowering the chin and turning their original mouth into the bottom of the nose.
Quote:small simple eyes (dots, 'c's, or circles)
I am quite convinced that the eyes were originally just dashes (except probably on larger figures and sun/moon faces), and were "enhanced" letter. Probably by the same generous soul who provided most nymphs with a belly button and other anatomical details which he obviously thought essential.
Quote:Red cheeks, red lips
You know my opinion about the color paints.
Quote:Thin linework
Except where it is thicker...
Quote:some zodiac nymphs are clothed
I believe that the Scribe started drawing nymphs on the Aries and Taurus pages. I used to think that he was initially reluctant or unable to draw naked nymphs, hence the dresses and tubs; but by the end of Taurus he got bolder and better, so he drew them naked from that point on.
But recently, afterYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (which I think is the earliest nymph drawn), I changed my opinion a bit. I suspect that the dress and tub of that nymph were added by the Scribe himself, soon after doing it, to disguise the extremely ugly result of that first attempt; and then he continued with tubs and dresses for the next diagram or two just to keep the style minimally consistent.
Quote:are there other characteristically Votnichy traits that I'm missing?
The arms and legs are in a small repertoire of poses and angles. Sometimes the arm on the far side of the body is missing. (And I believe that in some cases the missing arm was provided leter, by someone else)
I also believe that, in the original version, most of the nymphs had only a cm or so of hair above the forehead, and compact hair (maybe only on the near side of the head) coming down to the level of the top of the neck, collecting in a roundish puff there. Like, say, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Sagittarius) inner at 03:00. The fancier hairdos may have been added later, too.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Cataloging manuscripts depicting women that look "Voynich-y"
Koen G > 04-01-2026, 08:56 PM
It's a bit more complicated. There are a lot of constants, or near constants in the way Voynich nymphs are drawn:
* The average nymph is four heads tall, which is very compact.
* Most nymphs support their weight on the leg closest to the viewer. That leg is stretched, even when the nymph is not standing.
* Most nymphs interacting with an object do so with the hand furthest from the viewer (unless they are handling for example two tubes or whatever). Male figures tend to have both hands in front of them, but most "regular" nymphs have the other arm (the one closest to the viewer) placed on their hips or positioned behind their backs.
There are exceptions to all of these, but given the quantity of nymphs (500+ iirc), this is always a small percentage.
* The Zodiac central figures deviate
* One or two nymphs have a more frontal orientation, notably the one centre top on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Admittedly, the face still tilts to the left, but it's more frontal than the rest of them, which also applies to the way the body is drawn. There is also one with a profile view in one of the big blue pools.
* Things change a lot when you include the figures in the astronomical diagrams, some of which are seen from the back.
A lot of that probably comes down to the particular way the VM artists ended up drawing his figures though, rather than being a cultural indicator. In my experience, finding figures similar to VM nymphs is more based on a certain je ne sais quoi rather than on measurable rules...