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Viola (odorata or tricolor)
- Viola (odorata or tricolor)
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RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
ReneZ > 28-11-2025, 12:33 AM
(27-11-2025, 06:50 PM)asteckley Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."This phytomorph (Fig. 4.142a) clearly shows linear, terminal stipular lobes, as in the North American native V. bicolor Pursh (V. rafinesquei Greene) (Fig. 4.142b)—not spatulate, as in the Eurasian V. tricolor L. Also, this phytomorph matches the blue flowers of V. bicolor, not the tricolored ones of V. tricolor; V. bicolor flowers are uniformly cream to blue, whereas those of V. tricolor usually have two purple upper petals and three cream to yellow lower petals ..."
There is no chance to decide from a medieval drawing which of two very similar species is meant. Simply from that aspect, both would be equally valid (or in fact invalid). Neither of the two can be preferred.
This is not my opinion. This is what one reads in all literature on late antique and medieval herbals.
As you know, and hint at, there is another good reason why a North American plant is not expected in this MS.
That can best be kept outside this discussion. The related argument does not depend on the viola illustration. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Aga Tentakulus > 28-11-2025, 07:43 AM
The American (field pansy) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. should not be compared with the Viola Tricolor. Only with the European (field pansy) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The difference can only be detected with a genetic test.
There are many in the world that look identical. The point, however, is to find them all in one place. And America is no longer in the running.
As for Tucker and Janick, they tried to use the plants to reinforce their theory about America (origin VM). For me, therefore, their work is of no value, regardless of who they are. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Koen G > 28-11-2025, 07:56 AM
(27-11-2025, 11:34 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is kind of strange as V. tricolor and arvensis are prolific agricultural weeds that are easier to cultivate than V. odorata, providing you have a sufficiently dry and sunny spot. And they flower for a much longer period than odorata, all summer. I think the reason is that it took until the late 15th century and the Northward spread of the Renaissance for scholars to create novel works instead of just copying and recompiling classical literature. Therefore, while V. tricolor use was probably known and even cultivated in early medieval Middle Europe, it may simply not have been recorded in herbals because the major authorities of antiquity did not recommend it. At least not in the high quality famous works that survived until today. Quality-wise, the VM certainly is an oddball that only survived because of its weirdness.
I agree, this seems like the most likely explanation. The herbal traditions are based on authorities, and there was little incentive to add new stuff. So we shouldn't look at them as a field guide.
Still, most plants of the MS are impossible to identify. When you see a flower, the leaves don't match etc. That Viola of all things should be so clear is fascinating. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Jorge_Stolfi > 28-11-2025, 08:03 AM
(27-11-2025, 06:50 PM)asteckley Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Rene and Jorge, I’m interested in your thoughts on why you consider this illustration as specifically more likely to represent Viola triolor rather than Viola bicolor. As you know, the argument that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is more likely the latter has been made by well-credentialed botanical experts, but is typically rejected for extraneous reasons, which conflicts with a proper analysis of the botanical features.
I cannot give much weight to their opinions since they are based on the color patterns of the flowers, and I believe that the colors are spurious. There is evidence that they were applied centuries after the outlines were drawn, by someone who could not read the text and did not know which plants the figures were supposed to represent. (And, frankly, I suspect that it was some bored kid who used the VMS as coloring book.)
If I understand their jargon correctly, their other argument is that the shape of the topmost leaves of V. bicolor is a better match than V. tricolor:
Here is a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
I would say that this detail is small compared to the magnitude of errors that the artist could make even when copying from nature. Neither of the two species gives a perfect match for the topmost leaves, anyway.
And then of course there is the matter of V. bicolor's native range.
I presume that you will take that as evidence that the VMS was written at least a century later than the C14 date -- which is how long it would take for a rare inconspicuous flower of North America to be noticed and find its way into the VMS.
But since I am quite convinced that the writing was not long after the C14 date, I take that instead as evidence that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was not meant to be V. bicolor...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
sivbugge > 28-11-2025, 08:22 AM
(26-11-2025, 04:22 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(26-11-2025, 12:50 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do not know whether the text in the Tractatus provides further details about which particular type of viola is meant.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Viola (with no qualifier) was since antiquity the common Latin name for the odorata species only (and maybe for other species that could be confused with it, or for any small purple flower in general). The derivatives of that word are still used in the same way (with no qualifiers) in English and most Romance: "violetta" in Italian, "violette" in French, "violeta" in Spanish and Portuguese...
I don't think anyone would have used "viola" for the pansy in the Middle Ages, since the plants, leaves, and flowers are quite different. That happened only in the 1600s-1700 after Linné invented the binomial name system, and used Viola for the name of the genus that was defined as comprising both species (and others).
All the best, --stolfi
Here is how Tony Hunt registered Viola in Plant Names of Medieval England. The medieval Latin name is written in bold, the modern Latin name in cursive, and the vernacular medieval English names in regular.
Best, Siv
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RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Jorge_Stolfi > 28-11-2025, 08:32 AM
(27-11-2025, 10:12 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ok, now it's getting ridiculous. Who added the VM to the Wikipedia page of Viola rafinesquei? The entire paragraph is among the biggest nonsense I have ever seen on Wikipedia.
It's not ridiculous, it is tragic. Some Voynich enthusiasts have been adding references to the VMS to articles about things that are conjectured to be found in the manuscript.
I had to remove a line from the article about the mineral You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that claimed that it was used as a paint pigment in the VMS. Just because the McCrone technician copy-pasted the output of their spectrum-matching software onto the report, without checking what palmerite was.
I just removed that reference to the VMS from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. article. And another one from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. article. See the respective Talk pages. Please let me know if you find other cases.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Jorge_Stolfi > 28-11-2025, 08:46 AM
(28-11-2025, 08:22 AM)sivbugge Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is how Tony Hunt registered Viola in Plant Names of Medieval England. The medieval Latin name is written in bold, the modern Latin name in cursive, and the vernacular medieval English names in regular.
Thanks for the clip. England seems to be mostly off the race at present, but the meanings of Latin "viola" listed in that dictionary may have been used also in the presumed place of scribing of the VMS, wherever that is.
From what I see, some of the meanings of Latin "viola [+qualifier]" listed in that dictionary are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (which is definitely not f9v), other unknown species of Viola, or species in other genera. No mention of the pansy (Viola tricolor), unless it is one of those Medieval English names.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Aga Tentakulus > 28-11-2025, 09:46 AM
Question:
The names of plants were just names, regardless of whether they were spoken in Greek or Latin.
When did Latin/Greek names become scientific names?
Is there a specific year?
Can we even rely on such names? -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Aga Tentakulus > 28-11-2025, 09:51 AM
I ask myself this because this plant alone has 14 different names. -
RE: Viola (odorata or tricolor)
Jorge_Stolfi > 28-11-2025, 10:28 AM
(28-11-2025, 09:46 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When did Latin/Greek names become scientific names? Is there a specific year?
The origin of the modern system of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Genus + species, one word each, conventionally in italics and with the genus only capitalized, both standardized) is attributed to Gaspard Bauhin, who used it in a book published in 1622. Prior to that, species were usually named in Latin with a generic name followed by a descriptive word or phrase, not consistent, like "plantago foliis ovato-lanceolatus pubescentibus".
Quote:Can we even rely on such names?
The modern names would not have been used in the VMS, nor in herbals of the time, of course.
Thus they should be used only to designate a specific actual plant, not a page, entry, or drawing from those books. Like, "I think that the stars with tails in the Zodiac are obviously a gigantic cultivar of the Alpine star flower, Leontopodium nivale".
All the best, --stolfi