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Cipher or unknown language - historical perspective

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• Cipher or unknown language - historical perspective

• RE: Cipher or unknown language - historical perspective

  MarcoP > 27-10-2025, 07:36 AM

  (26-10-2025, 09:37 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (24-10-2025, 10:48 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Like here, do you see single strokes with ink that didn't take in places, or am I not following the argument correctly?

  
  I have numbered all characters of your picture which can be done in one stroke.

  
  *with a modern pen (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
  
  

  Erik Kwakkel Wrote:Writing a medieval text with a quill is hard work. The pen could only make a more or less downward movement because of how the nib was cut. It meant that letters had to be broken up into multiple pen strokes.

• RE: Cipher or unknown language - historical perspective

  Jorge_Stolfi > 27-10-2025, 11:40 AM

  (26-10-2025, 09:37 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have numbered all characters of your picture which can be done in one stroke.

  
  While those characters could be drawn in one stroke, most were not. As Marco pointed out, when writing with a quill on rough vellum, you can only make light strokes in the general "up" direction, because the quill risks snagging on the bumps and dents.  
  
  All the characters you marked "1", except the i  and the n, were drawn with two strokes.  In some cases that is clear, in others it is uncertain.  Nowhere there is definite evidence that they were drawn as one stroke.
  
  The alphabet was indeed optimized for writing, but the minimum number of strokes, for most characters, was 2.
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Cipher or unknown language - historical perspective

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 01-11-2025, 09:59 PM

  (27-10-2025, 07:36 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.*with a modern pen (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
  
  

  Erik Kwakkel Wrote:Cursive[..]The clerks who produced these documents used a much thinner pen than what was used for formal book script. The flexible tip allowed for a faster pace and it gave the script a kind of “casual” feel.
  
  While book script required the pen to be lifted between each stroke that formed the letter, with cursive script the pen remained on the surface of the page, with each letter connected by a ligature (or loop). 

  
  From the same source. At beginning of 15Ct this technique was long and far established, writing better and faster than "1 movement down and offset" was easily possible. VMS has no linked letters, but clearly a lighter way of writing than the classic book typing.
  
  

  Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: Nowhere there is definite evidence that they were drawn as one stroke.
  

  
  And there is literally nowhere the definite evidence that all or most letters needed 2 strokes.
  In that example picture, there are many characters shown where no second "landing" after an offset is visible.

• RE: Cipher or unknown language - historical perspective

  oshfdk > 01-11-2025, 10:19 PM

  (01-11-2025, 09:59 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And there is literally nowhere the definite evidence that all or most letters needed 2 strokes.
  In that example picture, there are many characters shown where no second "landing" after an offset is visible.

  
  I'm not sure if you need other people's opinions or not, but in case you do, here's mine: the shapes of most Voynichese letters could be produced with one stroke using some special techniques and writing implements. But the strokes would have looked quite differently if this was the case. To me it's absolutely certain that almost all glyphs in the manuscript were actually written using more than one stroke, with the exception of e and i.

• RE: Cipher or unknown language - historical perspective

  rikforto > 02-11-2025, 03:32 AM

  (01-11-2025, 10:19 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (01-11-2025, 09:59 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And there is literally nowhere the definite evidence that all or most letters needed 2 strokes.
  In that example picture, there are many characters shown where no second "landing" after an offset is visible.

  
  I'm not sure if you need other people's opinions or not, but in case you do, here's mine: the shapes of most Voynichese letters could be produced with one stroke using some special techniques and writing implements. But the strokes would have looked quite differently if this was the case. To me it's absolutely certain that almost all glyphs in the manuscript were actually written using more than one stroke, with the exception of e and i.

  
  I can't claim true expertise and my experience is mainly in East Asian calligraphy, but I'll throw my hat in here too: multiple strokes, usually two, and fairly consistent as handwriting goes. And even if you reject my judgement (fair!) I'll affirm that a genuine expert should be able to make these determinations in principle because writing does leave evidence of the process on the page, to the point that scribes everywhere usually crafted systems that were based on picking them out. Every reason to think this script was in that tradition, and a fair few people have weighed in about what's on the pages of the Voynich
  
  An interesting outlier is EVA-d, which is sometimes 1 or even 3, but it's still mostly 2. I've been looking at it differently since Stolfi started talking more about a possible retracer because I think the variations might be down to that, with the original being 2 strokes. I have plans to look closer at that later this week or next.
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