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• Repetition of words

• RE: Repetition of words

  Aga Tentakulus > 27-02-2026, 10:56 PM

  Da aber das VM-Manuskript eher mystisch scheint, empfehle ich .......
  Wenn hinter Hexen Hexen hexen, hexen Hexen Hexen nach.
  Viele Grüsse von einer Kräuterhexe aus der Walpurgisnacht.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  However, as the VM manuscript seems rather mystical, I recommend .......
  When witches cast spells on witches, witches cast spells on witches.
  Best wishes from a herbal witch on Walpurgis Night.

• RE: Repetition of words

  pjburkshire > 27-02-2026, 11:06 PM

  Has anyone done a study of the double or repeated words?  Is each case unique?  Or, are there multiple cases of the same word being repeated?  Do the repeated words happen in some sections more than others?  Or, are the number of cases the same across sections?

• RE: Repetition of words

  nablator > 28-02-2026, 12:38 AM

  (27-02-2026, 11:06 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Or, are there multiple cases of the same word being repeated?

  
  Close to 20 chol chol, daiin daiin, qokeedy qokeedy, etc.

• RE: Repetition of words

  magnesium > 28-02-2026, 01:17 AM

  The Naibbe cipher and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might serve as useful references here, if only as proofs of concept. 
  
  Within the Naibbe cipher, a given word has a single conserved mapping to a plaintext n-gram (by default either a unigram or a bigram). For example, in the Naibbe cipher, qokedy qokedy qokedy translates to "I I I."
  
  In Griffoynich, however, a given word stands for a specific set of operations performed on a 2D grid of letters: for example, move up/down and left/right by some number of squares and then select a letter in a certain direction relative to your end location. In Griffoynich, a given word repeating would mean repeating the same set of operations—which often wouldn't result in the same letter repeating multiple times in a row.
  
  One of the things that cuts against the VMS "words" being true words is that there are not all that many multi-word phrases, especially of length 3 or greater, that repeat throughout the VMS. But if there are multiple ways of representing a given letter or short n-gram, as the Naibbe cipher and Griffoynich both model, then there are ways around that restriction (albeit with other tradeoffs).

• RE: Repetition of words

  Eiríkur > 28-02-2026, 02:02 AM

  (27-02-2026, 11:06 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has anyone done a study of the double or repeated words?  Is each case unique?  Or, are there multiple cases of the same word being repeated?  Do the repeated words happen in some sections more than others?  Or, are the number of cases the same across sections?

  
  Under the hood, it's pretty crazy in there. When I take away the distraction of the glyphs, I see a spooky wildness, almost like speaking in tongues in some places (f75r, for example)  I did some work on this by writing a program. I was only looking at exact repetitions (for each word, how many matching words are there on this page). I think it's better to look at words that are different by one glyph (added, removed, or changed). I was inspired by Torsten Timm and Patrick Feaster and others. There's a definite pattern of very frequent words having many close relatives that are off by only one glyph. That needs some explanation and I don't have one. Torsten does have one. It's not hard to look at the data. You can just load it into a text editor. 
  
  You made me curious to see if I'd still think think this stuff is odd. I found f75r, just by searching Rene's ZL transliteration  for occurrences of qokeedy. Here are some sequential lines. The "<->" represents a narrow vertical illustration that splits the lines of text. 
  
  <f75r.6,+P0>      pcheykeeor.olky<->dar.okey.qokain.chcthy.qokeedy.qoky
  <f75r.7,+P0>      pchedy.qokshdy<->ytain.chedy.qokar.chy.lol.chedy.qoky
  <f75r.8,+P0>      sor.chey.qokardy<->dsheckhy.qokain.chckhy.lshedy.okeedy
  <f75r.9,+P0>      qokchdy.chcthy.lo<->qokedy.qokan.checkhy.qokar.olchedy.sal
  <f75r.10,+P0>    dshor.qotar.chdy<->shey.qokain.chckhy.dy.otey.tedy.lchedy
  <f75r.11,+P0>    qokeedy.qokair.oly<->qokeedy.dy.qokal.okar.shedy.dor.chekam
  <f75r.12,+P0>    ssheckhy.qokal.oly<->shey.r.ol.cheey.shey.dy,olshedy.qoky
  <f75r.13,+P0>    pchedy.keedy.qokedy<->qokedy.qokedy.qokedy.qokain.olshedy
  <f75r.14,+P0>    sain.al,keishy.qokain,dy<->olshedy.qokain.chckhy.qokain.otar,aly
  <f75r.15,+P0>    sain.qokain.qolkeeoly<->saiin.chedy<->sol.or.shedy.okchdy.qoky
  <f75r.16,+P0>    dshedy.qokar.sheedy.lch<->shokain.chy<->okshedy.qokain.chedy
  <f75r.17,+P0>    pchedar.shepchy.lshedary<->dal<->shal<->shy,kol.shedy.qokam
  
  Blog post by a ninja whose name I've forgotten:
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• RE: Repetition of words

  Jorge_Stolfi > 28-02-2026, 08:03 AM

  (03-11-2025, 01:30 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would say that repeated words are quite common but rather not in European languages. They are often used to mean plural case.

  
  Accidental repetition too can occur more often in languages that have free grammar. I recently ran across a 寒寒 in a Chinese text that was actually accidental, from two separate terms 伤寒 = "damage by cold" and 寒热 = "chills and fever"
  
  Repeated words are rare in European languages in part because Indo-European grammars generally force neighboring words to be from different categories (noun/verb/adjective/article/peposition etc). Also repetition is seen as bad style and students are taught to avoid it.
  
  But still repetitions can happen in English too. "to two", "two to", "had had", "said that that book", ...
  
  "The teacher where the student had had had had had had had had displeased the teacher"
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Repetition of words

  Fontanellean > 01-03-2026, 06:12 PM

  If Voynichese is a natural language, couldn't repeated words simply be that language's way of expressing intensification, i.e. "very?"
  
  Example: "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."
  Modified example: "Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away..."

• RE: Repetition of words

  Eiríkur > 03-03-2026, 09:09 AM

  [quote="Fontanellean" pid='80698' dateline='1772385136']
  If Voynichese is a natural language, couldn't repeated words simply be that language's way of expressing intensification, i.e. "very?"
  
  I hear you, but what's there on the pages looks more complicated to me. The smoking gun for me is the large number of "off by one" single glyph changes (replace/add/remove) that are found clustered in the same paragraph. One can come up with explanations but they seem too contrived to me. I can't explain what's there.  I think that the single-glyph case is just one case. I think I see copying at the affix and syllable (or crust/mantle/core) level as well, but I can't imagine a human copying previous text that way.  Using aesthetic instinct and eyeballs may have yielded what we see. I've not been working on a program for this (is this word a permutation?) because it's in search of proving a redundancy that is probably already revealed in statistical approaches.

• RE: Repetition of words

  Jorge_Stolfi > 03-03-2026, 03:35 PM

  pǔ xiāo wèi kǔ hán wú dú zhǔ zhì bǎi bìng chú hán rè xié qì zhú liù fǔ jī jù jié gù liú pǐ néng huà qī shí'èr zhǒng shí liàn ěr fú zhī qīng shēn shén xiān shēng shāng ǔ xiāo shí wèi kǔ hán zhǔ zhì wǔ zàng jī rè wèi zhàng bì dí qù chù jié yǐn shí tuī chén zhì xīn chú xié qì liàn zhī rú gāo jiǔ fú qīng shēn yī míng máng xiāo shēng shāng ǔ fán shí wèi suān hán zhǔ zhì hán rè xiè lì bái wò yīn shí è chuāng mù tòng jiān gǔ chǐ liàn ěr fú zhī qīng shēn bù lǎo zēng nián yī míng yǔ niè shēng shāng ǔ huá shí wèi gān hán zhǔ zhì shēn rè xiè pì nǚ zǐ rǔ nán lóng bì lì xiǎo biàn dàng wèi zhōng jī jù hán rè yì jīng qì jiǔ fú qīng shēn nài jī cháng nián shēng zhě yáng shāng ǔ zǐ shí wèi gān píng zhǔ zhì xīn fù kài nì xié qì bǔ bù zú nǚ zǐ fēng hán zài zǐ gōng jué yùn shí nián wú zǐ jiǔ fú wēn zhōng qīng shēn yán nián shēng tài shān shāng ǔ
  
  
  (Actual Chinese text.)

• RE: Repetition of words

  Grove > 15-03-2026, 12:22 PM

  Is there much difference between the Chinese theory and a syllabic European theory whether the VMS words or the glyphs represent syllables?
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