Options

The 490, and other starting character patterns

Index
The 490, and other starting character patterns
RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

Jorge_Stolfi > 29-09-2025, 11:11 PM

(29-09-2025, 10:50 PM)SherriMM Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also my statistics only include the 18 line-initial characters, not any amount of random letters. Of the 18 characters, should I compute based on frequency?

If you assume that those 18 characters are equally likely then P(q) = P(o) = P(y) = 1/18 = ~0.056. Then, if each line-initial letter is just chosen at random, independently, in 1000 lines you would expect 998*(1/18)^3 = 0.18 occurrences of qoy; that is none, or maybe one or two.

But suppose that (say) P(q) = P(o) = P(y) = 0.30, with all the other 15 letters occurring only on 10% of the lines. Then in 1000 lines, with each initial being chosen at random and independently, you should expect 998*(0.30)^3 = ~27 occurrences of qoy.

Thus, in order to tell whether the number of qoy occurences is anomalous, you must consider the actual frequencies of the letters in line-initial positions.

And, again, note that some three-glyph sequences will be more common that what the formula says. For instance, in the second example above, the string qoy may occur only 25 times, but qyo may occur 31 times, oqy 26 times, oyq 33 times... If you pick the the most common three-letter pattern, that pattern will be more common than expected.

All the best, --jorge
RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RobGea > 30-09-2025, 12:25 AM

Some numbers from RF1b-er.txt

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Code:
First_letter_of_a_line counts from RF1b-er.txt Total first_letter_of_a_line character Tokens: 4130 How many distinct characters: 16 Eva Count Percentage Relative_frequency d 640 15.4964% rf: 0.155 s 624 15.109% rf: 0.1511 y 610 14.77% rf: 0.1477 o 544 13.1719% rf: 0.1317 q 531 12.8571% rf: 0.1286 t 399 9.661% rf: 0.0966 p 374 9.0557% rf: 0.0906 c 160 3.8741% rf: 0.0387 k 100 2.4213% rf: 0.0242 l 69 1.6707% rf: 0.0167 f 41 0.9927% rf: 0.0099 a 20 0.4843% rf: 0.0048 r 13 0.3148% rf: 0.0031 e 3 0.0726% rf: 0.0007 x 1 0.0242% rf: 0.0002 ? 1 0.0242% rf: 0.0002 ---
RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

Jorge_Stolfi > 06-10-2025, 05:43 AM

(30-09-2025, 12:25 AM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Code:
First_letter_of_a_line counts from RF1b-er.txt Total first_letter_of_a_line character Tokens: 4130 d 640 15.4964% rf: 0.155 s 624 15.109% rf: 0.1511 y 610 14.77% rf: 0.1477 o 544 13.1719% rf: 0.1317 q 531 12.8571% rf: 0.1286 ...

OK, so (n-2)P(q)P(o)P(y) = 4128 * 0.129 * 0.132 * 0.148 = ~10.4.

Meaning that, if the line-initial letters had been chosen randomly and independently with those frequencies, in those 4130 lines you should expect to get 10 qoy or thereabouts.

Also about a dozen dsy, a dozen sdy, a dozen yds, ten qyd, ...

All the best, --jorge
RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RadioFM > 06-10-2025, 10:52 PM

If intentionally interspersing by not repeating previous character, expected number of qoy occurrences ~13.6
RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

Jorge_Stolfi > 07-10-2025, 10:44 AM

(06-10-2025, 05:43 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.if the line-initial letters had been chosen randomly and independently with those frequencies

Two random variables X and Y are independent, by definition, if Prob(X=x and Y=y) = Prob(X=x)Prob(Y=y) for any possible values x,y

If each letter S[k] in the sequence is independent from all the others, in particular it must be independent from the previous one S[k-1]. You can test this condition by computing the frequency P(xy) of S[k-1]S[k] = xy and comparing it with the product of frequencies P(x)P(y). For example, since P(q) = 0.1286 and P(o) = 0.1317, the frequency P(qo) of qo in consecutive positions should be close to 0.1286*0.1317 = 0.0169. That is, P(qo)/(P(q)P(o)) should be close to 1.

However the frequencies are only an approximation to the probabilities, and the error is large when the letters and letter pairs occur only a few times in the sample. So this test should be applied only to the most common letters, like the top five in your list.

Also, this test only checks whether each letter is independent from the previous one. If the line-initial letters pass this test, there may still be more complicated dependencies. Like "S[k] is equal to S[k-3] 70% of the time, unless S[k-7] is q, in which case ..."

Also, if one computes a large number of statistics about something, some of the statistics will be "anomalous" just by chance. Like, if you ask 1024 financial gurus in the morning whether a certain stock will go up or down during the day, for 10 consecutive days, there is a good chance that one of them will be correct all 10 times. It does not follow that her predictions are better than the others. Or better than flipping a coin...

All the best, --jorge
RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

Magical Raven > 07-10-2025, 09:05 PM

Excuse the intrusion, I'm a programmer (a very bad one), I want to share my perspective if you don't mind.Is it a feasible theory that each paragraph is a block composed of lines that are in turn self-sufficient?Each line would represent a different but sequential process, meaning you could only complete the second line once the first line of the block was done and executed.

Thanks to the guy who started this thread, I was able to see the patterns at both the beginning and end of the lines.That would also perhaps explain the text's weak narrative structure, but it does have a certain component of logical processes... Like A-> B-> C

Here are some prefixes and labels that end on each line and are constantly repeated.

Prefixes qok–, ot–, d–, y– Which usually start the supposed instructions

Suffixes or tags ending sequences -dy, -ain, -al, -ol

In short, each block or paragraph is composed of different processes that begin and end on a single line. But this only applies to the botany section; I haven't explored the rest of the manuscript yet.
RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

dashstofsk > 08-10-2025, 11:49 AM

Thanks SherriMM,

I think you have raised something of genuine significance. But perhaps the way to analyse this further is not to look at 3 or higher character string repeats but to look at the distribution of 2-character repeats.

For instance, in the starting characters for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ( using the GC transliteration ) a q line is followed 7 times by one of the ch variants, and there appears to be a pattern. This is curious.



In f83r  s lines seem to appear too often. Curious also.



Taking only paragraph text from the GC transliteration and not including lines spanning page breaks, the matrix of occurrences for the character pairs is given here.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

( counts )

For instance, there are 80 lines starting d that are followed by a line staring y. But if you look at the matrix of affinities, the ratios of counts against expected values, then you get something rather unexpected. d followed by d occur 50 times, but this is 0.52 of what would be expected if the lines were randomly shuffled. But also look at o-o ( 0.25 ), q-q ( 0.3 ), t-t ( 0.59 ). These doubles all occur less often than expected. Yet if you look at s-s ( 1.42 ), it is high. s seems to have a liking for itself more than for other characters.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

( affinities )

Also look at some of the highs. q-Sh and q-ch occur 2.18 and 3.75 times what would be expected. o-q occurs 134 times but is 2.01 times what would be expected. Also look at some of the lows.  s-ch hardly ever occurs. These are big swings from parity.

Applying statistics hypothesis testing methods to this data to obtain a confidence level in the hypothesis that the effects are not random would not be necessary. The swings from parity are just too big.

So, how to explain these anomalies.

If the manuscript were in some natural language then it would be expected that the narrative would just wrap to the next line if there was no more space for a word at the end of the previous line. Line starting characters would be independent of each other and there would be reasonable parity between observed and expected repeats.

Likewise with any cypher hypothesis that transforms words according to some algorithm.

So it just remains that these anomalies are showing evidence of human choice and selection, that the text of the VMS was artificially constructed and that the writers had some private method to generate text, and meaningless, had their favourite character strings, added sufficient variability in order to give the constructed text a semblance of genuineness, but with the exception of s did not want to repeat line first characters too often.
RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

Jorge_Stolfi > 09-10-2025, 08:34 AM

(08-10-2025, 11:49 AM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think you have raised something of genuine significance. But perhaps the way to analyse this further is not to look at 3 or higher character string repeats but to look at the distribution of 2-character repeats.

Even before that, one should compare the frequencies P(w) of line-initial words with the frequencies Q(w) of words in any position. They are very different. The statistics of line-initial glyphs is highly skewed because the statistics of line-initial words are skewed. Thus, one should try to understand and explain the latter rather that the former.

Suppose that on some other manuscript one finds that the letters "i", "x" and "v" seem to be very common at the beginning of the line, and there is an anomalously high frequency of repeated letters in consecutive lines, much higher than expected if they were chosen independently at random. Those anomalies might be easier to understand that if one notices that the most common words at the beginning of the line are "i", "ii", "iii", "iv", "v", "vi", ...

Let's look at page f83r, in particular. Say that a token (word occurrence) is "head" if it is the first of a line, "body" otherwise.

The following lists exclude words that occur only once, which we cannot tell whether they like to be head or body. The counts are nt = total occurrences on page, nh = occurrences as head, nb = occurrences in body. (Sorry for the leading zeros, but it was the only way I found to prevent the MyBB editor from messing up the alignment of the tables).

These words seems to occur as both head and body:

nt nh nb word
-- -- -- ---------
05 03 02 saiin
04 02 02 daiin
03 01 02 dain
03 01 02 qokchedy
03 01 02 sar
02 01 01 qokain
02 01 01 qokshedy
02 01 01 sy

These words occur (practically) ONLY as head:

nt nh nb word
-- -- -- ---------
07 06 01 sol
03 03 00 tchedy
02 02 00 solkeedy
02 02 00 sor

These words occur (practically) ONLY as body:

Code:
nt nh nb word -- -- -- --------- 16 00 16 chedy 15 00 15 shedy 12 00 12 qokedy 09 00 09 lchedy 07 00 07 qoky 07 01 06 qokeedy 05 00 05 chey 05 00 05 qokaiin 04 00 04 aiin 05 01 04 dal 04 00 04 ol 04 00 04 qokal 04 00 04 qokeey 04 00 04 qoteedy 04 00 04 shey 03 00 03 otedy 03 00 03 qokchdy 03 00 03 r 03 00 03 s 02 00 02 checthy 02 00 02 cheey 02 00 02 dar 02 00 02 l 02 00 02 lkedy 02 00 02 lo 02 00 02 lsheedy 02 00 02 olchedy 02 00 02 oldy 02 00 02 otaiin 02 00 02 qokey 02 00 02 qotal 02 00 02 qotedy 02 00 02 sain 02 00 02 shckhedy 02 00 02 shcthy 02 00 02 shecthy 02 00 02 shedal 02 00 02 sheedy

And these are the words that occur only once on the page:

Code:
nt nh nb word -- -- -- --------- 01 00 01 air 01 00 01 altedy 01 00 01 ar 01 00 01 atal 01 00 01 chary 01 00 01 chckhal 01 00 01 chckhdy 01 00 01 chcthdy 01 00 01 chdal 01 00 01 chdy 01 00 01 cheal 01 00 01 chealror 01 00 01 checkhy 01 00 01 checphedy 01 00 01 ched 01 00 01 chedaiin 01 00 01 chedain 01 00 01 chedchy 01 00 01 cheeb 01 00 01 cheedar 01 00 01 cheeety 01 00 01 cheeky 01 00 01 cheg 01 00 01 cheky 01 00 01 cheol 01 00 01 chepol 01 00 01 chety 01 00 01 chkain 01 00 01 chkedy 01 00 01 chkeedy 01 00 01 chky 01 00 01 chldaiin 01 00 01 ckal 01 00 01 cthal 01 00 01 cthalsaiin 01 00 01 daiiin 01 00 01 dairydy 01 00 01 dalchdy 01 01 00 dcheokedy 01 00 01 dolshed 01 01 00 dsheey 01 00 01 kain 01 00 01 kesd 01 00 01 lal 01 00 01 lchcphedy 01 00 01 lchdy 01 00 01 lchs 01 00 01 ldalor 01 00 01 ldar 01 00 01 ldy 01 00 01 lkeed 01 00 01 lol 01 00 01 lpchedy 01 00 01 lshedy 01 01 00 ocheol 01 00 01 ockhey 01 00 01 okain 01 00 01 okair 01 00 01 okedy 01 00 01 okeedyldy 01 00 01 okeeol 01 01 00 olkeedy 01 01 00 olkeey 01 00 01 ols 01 00 01 olsaly 01 00 01 opshcdy 01 00 01 opshedy 01 00 01 oqol 01 01 00 or 01 00 01 otal 01 00 01 otar 01 01 00 otchdy 01 00 01 otchedy 01 01 00 otchey 01 00 01 otor 01 00 01 otshdy 01 01 00 pchedal 01 00 01 pchedar 01 01 00 pchor 01 01 00 pdalshdy 01 00 01 qcphhedy 01 00 01 qeeedy 01 00 01 qekeiiin 01 00 01 qekey 01 00 01 qetal 01 00 01 qockhey 01 01 00 qockhol 01 00 01 qody 01 00 01 qofshdy 01 00 01 qokchy 01 00 01 qokeal 01 00 01 qokedal 01 00 01 qokol 01 00 01 qokylddy 01 00 01 qolchey 01 00 01 qolkain 01 00 01 qopchedy 01 00 01 qopy 01 00 01 qot 01 00 01 qotaiin 01 00 01 qotar 01 00 01 qotchedy 01 00 01 qotedaiin 01 00 01 qoty 01 00 01 raly 01 00 01 rchedy 01 00 01 rches 01 00 01 rchs 01 00 01 sam 01 01 00 schedair 01 01 00 schedy 01 00 01 schety 01 00 01 shckhey 01 00 01 shcthey 01 00 01 shdy 01 00 01 shechy 01 00 01 sheckhdy 01 00 01 sheckhy 01 00 01 shecthedchy 01 00 01 shecthedy 01 00 01 shedaiin 01 00 01 shedkedy 01 00 01 sheekchy 01 00 01 sheey 01 00 01 sheol 01 00 01 shetar 01 01 00 shky 01 00 01 shocphedy 01 00 01 shol 01 00 01 shy 01 00 01 skal 01 01 00 skar 01 01 00 soiiin 01 01 00 sokeedy 01 01 00 solche'dy 01 00 01 solchedy 01 01 00 solcheol 01 01 00 solchkal 01 00 01 soldy 01 01 00 solkeey 01 01 00 solkey 01 01 00 solshed 01 00 01 tain 01 00 01 tal 01 00 01 tar 01 01 00 techedy 01 00 01 tol 01 00 01 ytaiin
RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

dashstofsk > 09-10-2025, 09:39 AM

I have just recalled that user 'tavie' posted something similar about line starting characters. He used the term 'vertical pair' which sounds more suitable. In particular, he looked at the frequency of vertical pairs within different sections of the manuscript.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

To this I would just like to add my matrix of affinities for vertical pairs in the language A pages

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

( Language A affinities )

In particular you will see that o-o , q-q and t-t vertical pairs occur in language A even less often than would be expected.
RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

ReneZ > 09-10-2025, 12:22 PM

(09-10-2025, 09:39 AM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have just recalled that user 'tavie' posted something similar about line starting characters. He used the term 'vertical pair' which sounds more suitable. In particular, he looked at the frequency of vertical pairs within different sections of the manuscript.

She has made presentations at the Voynich Conference in 2022 and both Voynich MS days in 2024 and 2025.
Especially the latter two are on this topic, and I recommend having a close look at them.
Next Oldest Next Newest

The 490, and other starting character patterns

Index

RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns

RE: The 490, and other starting character patterns