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Month names collection / metastudy
- Month names collection / metastudy
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RE: Month names collection / metastudy
Koen G > 24-06-2025, 09:00 PM
We will do a thorough investigation. I'd prefer to set this up after my VMD presentation though, so in about a month. Of course we can already collect relevant MSS and charters.
The e will probably be crucial. Writing the extra spike takes more effort, so this writer must have been used to this form. Note: the writer uses two distinct forms of "e". Compare both versions of aberil. Both share the bottom stroke that's part of the cursive. The pen is lifted for placing something on top. The first aberil has three strokes on top, forming something like 4 or a weirdly shaped s. For us modern vriewers, the topmost line is the weird one, an extra spike. However, it appears that in the second aberil, the bottom part is omitted, and the "e" is now has a weird c-shape on top.
Both of these are found in other MSS. How to evaluate this? -
RE: Month names collection / metastudy
R. Sale > 24-06-2025, 11:26 PM
The problem with the 'e' in "aberil" is that it clearly consists of two separate parts. It's a result of a more casual writing style as compared to the "scribal" style. It's an idiosyncrasy. The problem is how to measure an idiosyncrasy. Not sure it can be done.
Looking at the very rounded form of 'm' in VMs mars and may, on the assumption that the month names were later additions, I've been searching 15th C. data. While there are different form variations, some versions of the rounded 'm' are more common. The distinction in this group is whether there is space at the bottom of the left and middle leg, or whether the feet on these legs are connected.
In other examples for contrast, the foot of the left leg goes away and down, negating the possibility of closure.
Now, in 14th C data, there are the odd examples. Stiff and straight, the antithesis of roundness.
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And fist line vs second line.
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Other examples are unusual.
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There are also good examples of rounded forms of the letter 'm' well before the 1400s.
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RE: Month names collection / metastudy
MarcoP > 26-06-2025, 06:08 PM
In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I probably picked the wrong example for Voynich-month ‘y’: word-final occurrences, with the descender that curves first backward and than forward, are certainly worth considering. Here is an example (dy=die, I guess) from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. EDIT: or is it dii/dij, since there are two dots?
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RE: Month names collection / metastudy
Koen G > 26-06-2025, 08:38 PM
That's a very similar shape, no matter what it's supposed to be. There was clearly some overlap between Ii, ij, y...
Regarding the e in the Voynich, it looks to me almost like.. you know when you write a word completely and only then dot the i's and cross the t's? It almost looks to me like they did the same with "capping the e" here. -
RE: Month names collection / metastudy
MarcoP > 26-06-2025, 09:07 PM
(26-06-2025, 08:38 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's a very similar shape, no matter what it's supposed to be. There was clearly some overlap between Ii, ij, y...
Final -n can also get rather close I guess...the difference depends on the slant of the last leg (and the dots), and a tiny imprecision can make 'n' and 'y' nearly identical.
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RE: Month names collection / metastudy
R. Sale > 04-07-2025, 12:16 AM
Back to the merry month of May, it looks to me as though there is a very similar stroke on the left leg of the 'm' and the lower left side of the 'a' in VMs 'may'. [See Post # 83.] It's a crisp, crescent shape, somewhat reclining. That stroke seems to be more acceptable in the letter 'a', but rather strange in the letter 'm'.
There are many ways to make a letter 'm'. The VMs is only one of many unusual examples; some posted above. The closest 'm' found so far in 15th C. calendars is St. Gall, c. 1432.
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March is also comparable.
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RE: Month names collection / metastudy
nablator > 04-07-2025, 04:01 PM
(04-07-2025, 12:16 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Back to the merry month of May, it looks to me as though there is a very similar stroke on the left leg of the 'm' and the lower left side of the 'a' in VMs 'may'. [See Post # 83.] It's a crisp, crescent shape, somewhat reclining. That stroke seems to be more acceptable in the letter 'a', but rather strange in the letter 'm'.
The crescent shape on both sides of the M with a more or less vertical stroke in the middle is not particularly difficult to find in 15th century manuscripts. I don't know how long it survived into the 16th century. I haven't found any from the 16th century.
Abbreviated Mercurium, Mercurio in Cambridge Trinity College O.2.47 f. 23r
In some printed books of the 16th century on the front page they chose to write the initial M of the Roman numeral of the date with these two crescent shapes instead of straight lines: "ᴄɪᴐ" or even weirder "ᴄIᴐ". Example: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Month names collection / metastudy
R. Sale > 10-07-2025, 01:30 AM
It's interesting to note the differences between the two examples in the text above, written by the same person.
As I see the general construction of a rounded 'm' consists of three vaguely vertical lines which often have individual shapes and potential connections, on top- where they should connect, and on the bottom - where they should not. Closure on the bottom left is not an uncommon occurrence, but the VMs is open on both bottom sides.
If the left line has a 'c' shape, there is still a matter of size. Does the curve of the line occupy the whole of the left hemisphere, or is it more confined to the lower left quadrant?
The line on the right side may not always be connected. The VMs is connected. And the right leg may have a descender of greater or lesser significance from the various examples.
Taking a look at "Septe[m]bre", the VMs seems a bit odd using a straight 'S' as word initial.
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Here "Septe[m]ber has a serpent 'S' in red, but the two lines above, starting "Tempe Septe[m]bris" and "Tertia Septe[m]bris" both use the straight 's' variation.
Rather than indicating a later application of the zodiac's month designations, this information is contemporary with the VMs parchment C-14. -
RE: Month names collection / metastudy
nablator > 10-07-2025, 03:53 PM
(10-07-2025, 01:30 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The line on the right side may not always be connected. The VMs is connected. And the right leg may have a descender of greater or lesser significance from the various examples.
Yes, it's not symmetrical, maybe because thew were used to writing "c" and "j" shapes.
I think this style of M written like (|) may have been influenced by the 14th-15th century big rounded drop caps at the start of chapters and paragraphs.
For example (15th c.) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Month names collection / metastudy
R. Sale > 10-07-2025, 11:40 PM
That little zig-zag line (indented) is a real nice touch. Check these.
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So far, things seem to be allowing for earlier potential dating - rather that closing off that possibility. Is there something that will do that and prove a more recent date?