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New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
- New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
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RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
RobGea > 21-11-2024, 06:34 PM
Quote:In Europe, titanium white with anatase structure was first produced in Norway.
Titan Company A/S was founded in 1916, beginning the production of titanium white pigment in 1918.
Source:
ORIGINALS VS. FORGERIES: THE SIGNIFICANCE OF WHITE PIGMENTS IN ARTWORK EVALUATION
Šefců, Radka ; Antušková, Václava
. International Journal of Conservation Science ; Iasi Vol. 13, (Dec 2022): 1473-1484. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
asteckley > 21-11-2024, 07:21 PM
(21-11-2024, 06:34 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:In Europe, titanium white with anatase structure was first produced in Norway.
Titan Company A/S was founded in 1916, beginning the production of titanium white pigment in 1918.
Source:
ORIGINALS VS. FORGERIES: THE SIGNIFICANCE OF WHITE PIGMENTS IN ARTWORK EVALUATION
Šefců, Radka ; Antušková, Václava
. International Journal of Conservation Science ; Iasi Vol. 13, (Dec 2022): 1473-1484.
That quote is about the titanium compound with anatase. I was asking about any titanium compounds being used in inks. When did that start? Titanium itself was not discovered till 1791, but presumably compounds using it in inks were around much earlier. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
RobGea > 21-11-2024, 07:29 PM
Ah, found a whole article on the use of Titanium in art including both Anatase and Rutile.
Quote:It is usually said that titanium white pigments date from 1920, but this belongs to the history of industrial manufacturing.
painterspalettes.net >> titanium-white
The history of the pigment itself begins c. 1800 when it was being used as a pigment in the ceramic arts for yellow glazes.
By around 1900 it began to be used by painters, it having been found, for example, on the easel of the Impressionist painter, Camille Pissarro, who died in 1903.
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@asteckley, my apologies i did not read your post properly. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
asteckley > 21-11-2024, 07:37 PM
(21-11-2024, 07:29 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ah, found a whole article on the use of Titanium in art including both Anatase and Rutile.
Quote:It is usually said that titanium white pigments date from 1920, but this belongs to the history of industrial manufacturing.
painterspalettes.net >> titanium-white
The history of the pigment itself begins c. 1800 when it was being used as a pigment in the ceramic arts for yellow glazes.
By around 1900 it began to be used by painters, it having been found, for example, on the easel of the Impressionist painter, Camille Pissarro, who died in 1903.
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@asteckley, my apologies i did not read your post properly.
(Thanks RobGea.) That doesn't sound good with respect to the McCrone report on the Voynich Manuscript ink. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
RobGea > 21-11-2024, 10:07 PM
Just to be clear,
my 2 previous posts (due to my error) were about Titanium in Pigments, that is paints, rather than Inks.
Wrt, Titanium in inks , i searched about and couldnt find anything but this caught my eye.
regarding medieval type inks ;
Quote:" a plausible medieval contaminant, the iron−titanium mineral ilmenite (FeTiO3)"
Source: "The Vinland Map Ink Is NOT Medieval", Kenneth M. Towe, Analytical Chemistry Vol 76/Issue 3
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
tavie > 21-11-2024, 11:12 PM
(21-11-2024, 10:15 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Simply titanium by itself is not suspicious.
...
So, when the same McCrone company investigates the Voynich MS in 2009, finds titanium and does not consider it an issue, we can be pretty damn sure that it was NOT anastase titanium dioxide that they found.
Thanks, Rene, that was really helpful. I had been wondering why, if titanium is significant, it would be Rich flagging this rather than academics/experts in this area.
I didn't know - or have maybe forgotten - that Sidney Reilly "took out a book on making medieval inks." What book was this?
A google search brings up this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which says "Readers' tickets for his shadowy friend, Sidney Reilly, show that among the books that the "Ace of Spies" studied at the British Museum library was Some Observations On Ancient Inks."
There is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Charles Blagden from 1787 but I'm not sure that it can be it. It is a short essay of about seven pages rather than a book, and its actual title is "Some Observations on ancient Inks with the proposal of a new Method of recovering the Legibility of decayed Writings", with suggestions on recovering faded text taking up more than half of the work. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
Bluetoes101 > 22-11-2024, 12:34 AM
This link shows the cover page, It seems likely a librarian would list it as "Some Observations On Ancient Inks."
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I read through it and I also don't believe you would gain much knowledge on how to create an older looking ink. If this is at all significant in some way I believe it is more likely research in how to better uncover the signature, which we know Wilfred did.
I'd say he followed it very well (sorry, I couldn't help myself)
![[Image: Capture2.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/MT4KMKFb/Capture2.jpg)
Edit: also just to note, the British library does hold a copy which they have scanned - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I couldn't find out the date they acquired it -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
Koen G > 22-11-2024, 12:48 AM
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RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
asteckley > 22-11-2024, 01:38 AM
(21-11-2024, 10:07 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Source: "The Vinland Map Ink Is NOT Medieval", Kenneth M. Towe, Analytical Chemistry Vol 76/Issue 3
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Thanks for that link. It is an interesting paper. But it does confuse the matter a bit more, since with all its discussion of inks --with and without titanium (in anatase form), and with and without iron gall components-- there is no mention or even allusion of titanium (of any compound type) being used in medieval inks. Except of course with respect to Olin attempting to explain its presence with experiments trying to simulate a possible way to explain it. It suggests that the general belief of these experts was that no kinds of titanium were being used in inks that early.
And I also cannot find any references to the use of titanium in inks (or paint) before its discovery in 1791 (or actually before ~1920).
What little I know of titanium is from my use of it for oil painting. It is the go-to for obtaining a pure white pigment -- I am not sure why that would be a desirable or intentional component for quill inks.
Regarding Rene's comment, it's true that McCrone's report only said "titanium compound", but I don't see how it follows that "we can be damn sure that it was NOT anatase titanium dioxide that they found".
On the contrary, since the reporters (the McCrone technicians) were likely aware of the Vinland Map's titanium anatase debacle
AND even more surely aware that one of the Voynich Manuscript's big questions was its time of origin, it seems me that there would be just as much, if not more, reason to expect that they would go out of their way to specifically point out that it was NOT titanium anatase. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
nablator > 22-11-2024, 08:33 AM
(21-11-2024, 10:07 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wrt, Titanium in inks , i searched about and couldnt find anything but this caught my eye.
regarding medieval type inks ;
Quote:" a plausible medieval contaminant, the iron−titanium mineral ilmenite (FeTiO3)"
Source: "The Vinland Map Ink Is NOT Medieval", Kenneth M. Towe, Analytical Chemistry Vol 76/Issue 3
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This more recent article (2012) says that "ilmenite in medieval inks is a realistic possibility" though no comparative study of medieval inks, looking for titanium compounds, has been done:
Quote:The presence of titanium in other medieval inks suggests that the presence of ilmenite in medieval inks is a realistic possibility. Further investigations of medieval inks to determine the nature of a titanium containing compound or compounds is required in order to correctly resolve this matter [16].
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In the controversy about the Vinland map's authenticity, it was argued that the presence of anatase may not be evidence of forgery:
Quote:"The source of the iron in medieval inks is green vitriol, an iron sulfate," Olin continues. "Green vitriol would include anatase if the iron source from which it was made included the iron-titanium mineral ilmenite."
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However "synthetic anatase in a distinctive crystalline form" (as found in the Vinland map) should not be found in medieval inks:
Quote:The McCrones found the ink on the map to contain synthetic anatase in a distinctive crystalline form and colored with a yellow impurity. Synthetic anatase in this form first became available around 1920. Since that time, various institutions, organizations, and individuals, each with their own agenda, have sought and failed to challenge the McCrones' findings.
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