Options

Repetition: Detabulated Text

Index
Repetition: Detabulated Text
Repetition: Detabulated Text

Hermes777 > 10-04-2024, 11:17 PM

Several new posts at my Voynich blog, including these reflections on the repetitive nature of the text:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Repetition: Detabulated Text

nablator > 11-04-2024, 10:07 AM

(10-04-2024, 11:17 PM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Several new posts at my Voynich blog, including these reflections on the repetitive nature of the text:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Maybe "detabulated" astrological records could look like Voynichese but you don't explain how. You have an argument by proclamation that it can explain the peculiar patterns that we see in the VMs, without any explanation of the transformation.

Line patterns are not easy to match with "detabulated" data: the size of lines varies a lot, start and end of line have different statistics than the rest, and paragraphs end with a shorter line, usually.

The problem with equating similarity in data with similarity in Voynichese is that you would need to constrain the variability of the data a lot to have a match. Data from astrological records can be obviously cyclical, or extremely repetitive (some numbers repeating many times before they change) or too random to see any obvious similarity. There is no obvious reason to get local similarities of the type that we see in the VMs.

Quote:[chol] = spring, [chor] = dawn, [chom] = Aries [cheor] = cardinal Fire, [shol] = east.

You haven't explained the (unnecessary?) strong constraints in vord structure either, or their evolution, or... anything really.

I would be open to the idea if you could provide actual evidence.
RE: Repetition: Detabulated Text

Hermes777 > 11-04-2024, 08:35 PM

(11-04-2024, 10:07 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(10-04-2024, 11:17 PM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Several new posts at my Voynich blog, including these reflections on the repetitive nature of the text:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Maybe "detabulated" astrological records could look like Voynichese but you don't explain how. You have an argument by proclamation that it can explain the peculiar patterns that we see in the VMs, without any explanation of the transformation.

Line patterns are not easy to match with "detabulated" data: the size of lines varies a lot, start and end of line have different statistics than the rest, and paragraphs end with a shorter line, usually.

The problem with equating similarity in data with similarity in Voynichese is that you would need to constrain the variability of the data a lot to have a match. Data from astrological records can be obviously cyclical, or extremely repetitive (some numbers repeating many times before they change) or too random to see any obvious similarity. There is no obvious reason to get local similarities of the type that we see in the VMs.

Quote:[chol] = spring, [chor] = dawn, [chom] = Aries [cheor] = cardinal Fire, [shol] = east.

You haven't explained the (unnecessary?) strong constraints in vord structure either, or their evolution, or... anything really.

I would be open to the idea if you could provide actual evidence.

I agree Nablator. The burden of proof lies with the proposal. I am aware of the shortcomings of this one. The problem of variables is especially acute. What governs the variables? Nor can I explain how the notation works in practice - what astrological events are being recorded? And different line lengths count against 'detabulation'. I can think of a dozen objections.

I covered the 'vertical' text using Tortsen Timm's examples in a much earlier post:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I take your point and accept the challenge though - it is nothing unless the notation system can be shown to match actual events or cycles. So far I have an account of the glyphs and some features of the text and am pursuing a plausible line of inquiry, but so far I cannot 'translate' (make intelligible) a single word.

I am not too concerned about that at this stage, but I am aware the Voynich trail is littered with cases that give a logical, plausible, systematic account of the features of the text that still don't result in a coherent 'translation' and fail for that reason.

In any case, it might be beyond me. I am comfortable with astrological symbolism and such, but if the text is recording complex co-ordinates, trigonometry and astronomical data of that nature (in an unfamiliar notation) I doubt I will be able to work it out myself. (Ditto if it is musical.)

For now I am content to consider and discuss the nature of the text. ("Consider" is etymologically the right word.) The text is remarkably repetitive. What models - linguistic or non-linguistic - provide the more plausible explanations for this? An 'astrological notation' proposal is better than most, but is only plausible, not proven. Are the patterns of repetition demonstrably astrological?
RE: Repetition: Detabulated Text

RobGea > 11-04-2024, 11:43 PM

Would not a ConLang or a notation style along the lines of Hungarian notation fit nicely here ?

Consider, if one were describing only astronomical stuff then theres only a limited number of categories, then numbers and a little grammar (positional maybe), that is necessary.
Theres no need for all the stuff like 'grammatical distinctions of case, voice, tense, and mood'. Nouns, adjectives, verbs, you can chuck most of that stuff out as well.

Though with the limited set of glyphs some re-use is going to have to happen,
perhaps using a postional system as an indicator (of category,number,etc) may resolve that issue.

Hastily contrived example.

Code:
Numbers: [0-9] decimal digits using 10 symbols [M,C,L,X,V,I] Roman numerals using 6 symbols Categories: 12 constellations 360 degrees (latitude, longitude, inclination, declination, ascending, descending) 7 planets 4 seasons 2 equinoxes 2 solstices 365(?) days 12-13 months ,lunar month 27-31 days month,Lunar month phases of the moon 2,4,8-30 Grammar: end_number -signifies the end of a number Example: qotcheaiin.dchain.cthain.daiin.daiin.cthain.qotaiin constellation- -taurus - ascending- -number- -end_number (Note: constellation named not numbered because: hastily contrived ) { qo- -t- -ch- -eaii- -n } planet- -ascending- -number- -end_number (Note: here planet has no following number thus meaning any planet :rolleyes: ) { d- -ch- -ai- -n } month- -number- -end_number { cth- -ai- -n } planet- -number- -end_number { d- -ai- -n } lunar_phase - -number- -end_number { qot- -aii- -n}
RE: Repetition: Detabulated Text

mrwiffler > 29-10-2024, 07:03 AM

I like your idea. The repetition is certainly a baffling aspect of the manuscript.

Song and poetry are another source of repetition in literature, particularly song. Since you're putting allot of effort into this I thought I might lazily suggest this as another avenue of investigation. The first difficulty that comes to mind with this idea is that the heavy alliteration or word play that might be responsible for the kind of repetition found in the Voynich text seems to be mainly seen in nonsense or children's verse.

The following example from your blog is interesting. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to imagine this as a verse from a song or poem, but the type of repetition is difficult to account for using contemporaneous examples. Lewis Carol is perhaps the only author I know of who's work might be said to resemble this odd bunch of words:

qokshedy.chedy.qokedy.chkedy.daiin.shetar.shedy.qekaiin.chedy.dsheey.qotaiin.checkhy.qoty.cheg.shedy.qokeey.rchedy.qokeedy.lo.schedy.chedchy.qokal.olchedy.qokaiin.chedy.qokeedy.lchedy.qoky.solshed.lsheedy.qeeedy.qoky.oqol.rsheedy.qokedy.qoteedy.qoteedy

Anyhow, still might be worth pursuing.
Next Oldest Next Newest

Repetition: Detabulated Text

Index

Repetition: Detabulated Text

RE: Repetition: Detabulated Text

RE: Repetition: Detabulated Text

RE: Repetition: Detabulated Text

RE: Repetition: Detabulated Text