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Why not positional variation?
- Why not positional variation?
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RE: Why not positional variation?
Aga Tentakulus > 17-04-2025, 03:51 PM
Have nothing in common.
One is a combination, the other an ending.
As far as can be recognised with the spelling EVA. -
RE: Why not positional variation?
dashstofsk > 17-04-2025, 05:39 PM
(17-04-2025, 03:10 PM)RadioFM Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.an ending equivalence r ≅ ii ≅ in or otherwise?
In the Glen Claston transliteration ( GC2a-n.txt from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and using the v101 alphabet ) in, iin, iiin are considered to be separate characters. Also ir and iir. If you were to list the words ending in and alongside each count the occurrences for the same word that ends in iin you would notice that their frequencies tend to be linked. See some of my results for quire 20. Where there is an in word you have an iin word.
My reading of this result is that in and iin words must be the same. The author's mind is sometimes in single stroke mode, and at other times in double stroke mode. -
RE: Why not positional variation?
Mauro > 17-04-2025, 06:47 PM
(17-04-2025, 05:39 PM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My reading of this result is that in and iin words must be the same. The author's mind is sometimes in single stroke mode, and at other times in double stroke mode.
I think this is improbable, because the frequency of -in or -iin endings is different from one word type to another.
Just for example (this happens all over the place): there are (RF1a-n text) 834 'daiin' and 202 'dain', with a ratio of about 4.1:1; 'aiin' and 'ain' behave similarly, with 529 and 123 occurences, about 4.3:1, but 'okaiin' and 'okain', with 205 and 126 occurrences have a ratio of 1.6:1, while 'qokaiin' and 'qokain' have 259 and 274 occurrences for a ratio of 0.95:1.
If -in and -iin were really the same I would expect rather similar ratios among all words with those endings (with the caveat that the data above are for the whole text, I cannot exclude the ratios become all similar considering the VMS section by section, or Currier language by Currier language etc.).
P.S.: the wildly variable ratios are what makes it difficult to model the VMS with a Markov chain (I tried once to do it, but it needed so many nodes to accomodate all the 'X-aiin/X-ain frequencies are different from Y-aiin/Y-ain ones' cases that I gave up, it was getting absurd). Always with the same caveat as before! -
RE: Why not positional variation?
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 18-04-2025, 05:26 PM
(08-09-2024, 03:57 AM)RadioFM Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]
I know for certain long time users of this forum already know Emma May Smith has previously delved in a similar topic on her hypothesis of a and y equivalence, but I'll leave it here just in case: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[..]
Intending to answer to the thread question I found this, started to read the "hypothesis", already stopped again at her very first table and was reminded why I don't give much about existing "researchs".
She claims that there is no y at a middle position. [font=Arial]So the evaluation was a bit short to say "no" to middle positions of it.[/font]
![[Image: IMG_1164.jpg?etag=W%2F%22469f6-68026b9a%...quality=85]](https://impro.usercontent.one/appid/oneComWsb/domain/bahnstadt-braunschweig.de/media/bahnstadt-braunschweig.de/onewebmedia/IMG_1164.jpg?etag=W%2F%22469f6-68026b9a%22&sourceContentType=image%2Fjpeg&quality=85)
I saw such things before, not very often, but existing.
About the a , working with a very useful map (which is younger then VMS) earlier this day, it shows several southeastern alphabets (Ruthenic in another corner)
![[Image: IMG_1163.jpg?etag=%2286ea3-6802669f%22&s...quality=85]](https://impro.usercontent.one/appid/oneComWsb/domain/bahnstadt-braunschweig.de/media/bahnstadt-braunschweig.de/onewebmedia/IMG_1163.jpg?etag=%2286ea3-6802669f%22&sourceContentType=image%2Fjpeg&ignoreAspectRatio&resize=1500,758&quality=85)
"Hunorum" are Hungarian Runes, these were in use at least until 1500+AD. (please google, don't want to put wiki-link herein and then be blamed for "this is German, I cant read German!" or so).
Didn't know the я was used as "a" also some time ago, might be interesting, [font=Arial]and it could very well work as leading "a" also.[/font]
q or, more popular, qo is then obviously "lend" for other purposes than being an a.
The green circles are for @dobri, as he may read this, he seeks for the red chapter openers of f1. I had seen them in a kyrillic text a ~month ago and can't find that sheet anymore.
They are calligraphed glagolitic, first one (vedi or so) is clear, the "bird" might come from different letters.
These Glagolitic letters were used within the younger kyrillic at church use for example, sometimes as letter, sometimes just decorative. -
RE: Why not positional variation?
oshfdk > 18-04-2025, 05:57 PM
(18-04-2025, 05:26 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Intending to answer to the thread question I found this, started to read the "hypothesis", already stopped again at her very first table and was reminded why I don't give much about existing "researchs".
She claims that there is no y at a middle position.
...
No, that's not what the paper says. The conditions under which that table was created are stated explicitly.
(18-04-2025, 05:26 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have never seen an a at a starting position in whole script.
Folio 1r, the very first line of the manuscript:
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RE: Why not positional variation?
dashstofsk > 19-04-2025, 07:51 AM
(17-04-2025, 06:47 PM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think this is improbable, because the frequency of -in or -iin endings is different from one word type to another.
Just for example (this happens all over the place): there are (RF1a-n text) 834 'daiin' and 202 'dain', with a ratio of about 4.1:1; 'aiin' and 'ain' behave similarly, with 529 and 123 occurences, about 4.3:1, but 'okaiin' and 'okain', with 205 and 126 occurrences have a ratio of 1.6:1, while 'qokaiin' and 'qokain' have 259 and 274 occurrences for a ratio of 0.95:1.
The ratios of niin words to in words is significantly different in languages A and B. In language A it is ~ 5.4:1, in language B it is ~ 1.6:1. Because we all know that daiin is more of a language A word the ratio daiin : dain for the whole manuscript is going to dependent more by its dominance in language A. What needs to be done is to tabulate the ratios separately for languages A and B. This is what I have done.
My hypothesis is that the author has a choice. He will end a word sometimes in iin and sometimes end it in in. For instance, he might be in more of a hurry when writing some pages, and this might sway him to write differently. Perhaps also with the belief that no-one will ever be able to read the manuscript he might just not care. The ratios aren't going to be exact. The significant fact is that for each language the top iin words are broadly in line order with the top in words.
I am including some output from language A. You will see that the variance in the ratios is less than in the language B output I gave earlier.
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RE: Why not positional variation?
ReneZ > 19-04-2025, 08:04 AM
(19-04-2025, 07:51 AM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Because we all know that daiin is more of a language A word
The two most frequent words in the last quire of the MS, the long stars- or recipes section, are aiin and daiin respectively. The third on the list is qokaiin, though this may depend on the transliteration. This part is written in the B language.
Mauro pointed out that it depends strongly on what comes before -aiin, and arguing that it is a language issue may or may not be consistent with that. This would require showing that these words are language-dependent. -
RE: Why not positional variation?
dashstofsk > 19-04-2025, 01:00 PM
(19-04-2025, 08:04 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This would require showing that these words are language-dependent.
That is assuming there is language dependence. It might be that the manuscript is in no language, a meaningless fabrication. My approach has been to do many statistical analyses on the text, then look closely at the results to decide which of these hypotheses is the more probable. Unfortunately, my analysis of iin, in does not seem to me to be consistent with the meaningful language hypothesis. -
RE: Why not positional variation?
ReneZ > 19-04-2025, 01:08 PM
(19-04-2025, 01:00 PM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That is assuming there is language dependence.
You misunderstood my point. I am not arguing about that either way. I just meant to explain that your argument was neither an agreement nor a disagreement with Mauro's point, unless you consider language-dependence, i.e. some words appearing more in A and others more in B.