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Historic cipher mapping
- Historic cipher mapping
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RE: Historic cipher mapping
ReneZ > 11-01-2022, 07:21 AM
For me, the logic is the wrong way round, because what's on the left are things we don't know.
I would say:
A knowledge of ciphers of the time is important, because it will give us an insight into whether the Voynich is written in cipher, related to cipher or not.
(Whether or not a map is useful comes after that) -
RE: Historic cipher mapping
Anton > 11-01-2022, 11:52 AM
I think knowledge of ciphers of the time is important because it gives us the impression of the possible mindset of the developer. Cipher or not, this is anyway some "secret" or "unknown" writing, so ciphers as such are not conceptually far from that. -
RE: Historic cipher mapping
Mark Knowles > 11-01-2022, 12:07 PM
(11-01-2022, 07:21 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For me, the logic is the wrong way round, because what's on the left are things we don't know.
I would say:
A knowledge of ciphers of the time is important, because it will give us an insight into whether the Voynich is written in cipher, related to cipher or not.
(Whether or not a map is useful comes after that)
Those are the perspectives that I observe, though I am not saying those perspectives are necessarily the correct ones.
In this area I am completely committed to data collection. I, clearly more than anyone, have been focused on compiling as many examples of ciphers, whether diplomatic or not, used at and around the time from which the Voynich manuscript is dated. I have even gone as far as offering a small reward for any cipher from this period that I am not already aware of. This collecting and compiling of ciphers is an ongoing process and has not finished yet. Unfortunately as archives are not keen to share our European heritage freely I am prevented from making most of the ciphers I have found public; if ciphers are reproduced in a book past its copyright date I think I am free to share them. Hopefully the transcription work that DECODE are doing will allow them to make many ciphers public without breaking the rules of the archives. -
RE: Historic cipher mapping
Mark Knowles > 11-01-2022, 12:19 PM
This is a recent email that Beata from DECODE sent me on the subject when I enquired about whether DECODE had a strategy for getting permissions from archives to make their ciphers publically available:
"Hi Mark,
Some archives give permission while others (the most) do not. We cannot make images public if we do not have the permission from the archives. They earn lots of money on the images although they should not as these are our cultural heritage…. But we try to transcribe the original images and make those publicly available, at least. Also, we develop transcription tool to make transcription faster and more reliable. It is ongoing work and I hope we can present it next year.
Happy new year!
Bea" -
RE: Historic cipher mapping
MichelleL11 > 11-01-2022, 04:39 PM
I agree that focus needs to be made on possible "fractionating" ciphers at the time -- which I haven't personally seen but will revisit the few references I have to see if there is any discussion at all in the relevant time period of that kind of ciphers.
A final comment on Polybius, there is no doubt that JM Moore's work seems to be definitive on the topic of the manuscript sources of Polybius. It does look very complex -- and a very quick look seems that significant contributions were by manuscripts that are, at least currently, in the Vatican collection. Where they were in prior times would be a tough project but might be justified if something comes together with the use of such an approach in the Voynich cipher.
At the very least I was able to find that JM Moore does agree in his You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (p. 436) that the whole suggestion by Casaubon that the copy that provided the "Excerpta Antiqua" being from the hand of Marcus Brutus is completely disproven.
If anything of interest comes of further looks, I'll be back to share. -
RE: Historic cipher mapping
Mark Knowles > 11-01-2022, 05:18 PM
I think there are some important things to know:
1) At the time of the Voynich the vast majority of ciphers used were for diplomatic purposes. The most advanced ciphers of the time were for diplomatic use. Diplomats were the experts of the period in ciphers and they worked to develop better ciphers.
2) The requirements for ciphers for the use by states for military and diplomatic purposes influenced many cipher developers. Alberti originally developed his cipher wheel on the basis of a request from the Vatican, if my memory serves me correctly. Many other later developers of ciphers seemed to have come from a background of diplomatic ciphers. I suspect that Giovanni Fontana became acquainted with ciphers through his diplomatic and political contact.
3) The period 1395 to 1445 was a period of very rapid change in diplomatic ciphers in comparison to the preceding and subsequent 50 years. This is evident if one compares the very simple 1395 Mantua cipher in Meister's book with the complex 1448 Milanese cipher in his book. Other evidence backs this up. So this was a dynamic period of innovation amongst diplomatic ciphers. Different things were tried some of which went out of use.
4) There are features in diplomatic ciphers some features that can be seen in Meister and some in other diplomatic ciphers which seem not inconsistent with what we see in the Voynich. -
RE: Historic cipher mapping
Mark Knowles > 11-01-2022, 09:20 PM
I think when considering ciphers there are some aspects which tend to be overlooked. I think a cipher needs to satisfy a few conditions:
1) It must be as hard as possible to decipher by someone without the cipher key.
2) It must be as easy as possible to encipher by someone with the cipher key.
3) It must be as easy as possible to decipher by someone with the cipher key.
4) The cipher key must be as easy to create as possible. I say this in the context of diplomatic ciphers where there is a different cipher key for each correspondent.
Obviously these different conditions tend to work against one another, so a balance has to be struck. Of these conditions 2, 3 and 4 are often overlooked.
In the context of diplomacy often the individuals applying the cipher such as envoys and ambassadors may not be skilled cryptographers, so conditions 2 and 3 are very important.
It is my hypothesis that we actually see a simplification of diplomatic ciphers in some Italian states during the latter part of the first half of the 15th century. This I think was in response to the realisation that ciphers that were getting increasingly complex had become too complicated to be practical for ordinary diplomats to use. This fits with my observation of some complex features found in earlier ciphers ceasing to be observed in later ciphers. -
RE: Historic cipher mapping
R. Sale > 11-01-2022, 09:50 PM
What do you say to (4) the complex key is included in the text? The reader just needs to find it. -
RE: Historic cipher mapping
Mark Knowles > 13-01-2022, 05:01 PM
I don't want to dismiss the ideas of others as to alternative origins of the Voynich cipher, if it is a cipher. It is possible that an old/ancient cipher was rediscovered or a completely new kind of cipher was invented. I briefly investigated the ideas of Ramon llull and his possible influence on Giovanni Fontana and Leon Battista Alberti. I don't think the fact that a cipher wasn't used later does not mean it can't have been used then only for the Voynich. Alberti's cipher made very little impact on general cipher usage at the time. There of course remains the question as to whether the inventor has any background in ciphers of that time. I am inclined to think that if the author(s) of the Voynich had no knowledge of ciphers of the time, assuming it is enciphered, then they must have been real genius(es) to come up with a cipher that hasn't been broken in 600 years. If the author had a background in diplomatic ciphers whether the Voynich manuscript cipher has anything in common with known diplomatic ciphers of the time or not then I would think they would likely be better placed to invent a new cipher. Given that the time from which the Voynich was created was a very dynamic and innovative period in the development of diplomatic ciphers and that sadly so little survives from that time we cannot be certain as to precisely what the complexity and nature of diplomatic ciphers was in that period. I have formed a very large collection of early 15th diplomatic ciphers and yet there are significant gaps in my knowledge due to an absence of ciphers from certain city states and at certain periods, maybe in the future I will be able to fill some of these gaps.