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  • New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"
• New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

• RE: New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

  ReneZ > 17-04-2024, 04:46 AM

  (16-04-2024, 04:54 PM)asteckley Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.While who is or isn't an expert is entirely subjective, I can think of several very reasonable criteria:
      * substantial experience dealing directly with the topic
      * knowledgeable on the broad set of facts about the topic and on the history of activity on it
      * a depth and breadth of applied research on the topic
      * active participation in discussions with the community of researchers around the topic
      * a considered opinion on specific aspects of the topic
      * a continual accumulation of information about the topic.

  
  Expertise and experience, and the criteria to judge these (by peers only, of course), for me depend on whether one is talking about:
  - science
  - engineering
  - crafts
  - art
  
  Having both training/education and practical experience is a bonus, but in different ratios for the above categories.
  
  In science, you won't go anywhere without a long education. Many jobs will be inaccessible if you don't also have proven experience.
  
  The example of the Wright brothers in engineering is interesting, but should be ranked as an exception, and nowadays no longer to be expected. However, people can still do very clever things with little education.
  In crafts, you would need considerable training, but may never have to pass any tests.
  
  Most of the types of knowledge that will help to better understand the Voynich MS for me fall under science and require a significant amount of education. This would include history in general, history of science and/or history of art.
  
  The main exception for me is the text analysis, where the playing field is relatively even.
  Understanding maths, statistics will be necessary.
  
  And still, having gone through an academic education is a great bonus, in having at least been taught to judge  things, to be critical and self-critical. You would know that you start by studying (reading) what has been done before.
  
  Denying anyone to be an expert on the Voynich MS because he or she cannot answer all questions is certainly not useful.
  It is also completely to be expected that experts do not agree on all aspects. But that is hopefully no longer in doubt.

• RE: New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

  Mark Knowles > 17-04-2024, 09:55 AM

  (17-04-2024, 04:46 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Denying anyone to be an expert on the Voynich MS because he or she cannot answer all questions is certainly not useful.

  
  That is certainly true. But denying anyone to be an expert on the Voynich manuscript, because he or she cannot answer reliably any of many most basic questions about the manuscript seems to me appropriate. I want to have some degree of trust that the "expert" knows what they are talking about.

• RE: New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

  bi3mw > 17-04-2024, 10:27 AM

  (17-04-2024, 09:55 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That is certainly true. But denying anyone to be an expert on the Voynich manuscript, because he or she cannot answer reliably any of many most basic questions about the manuscript seems to me appropriate.

  
  For me, an expert is someone who is particularly qualified in certain areas. For example, a computer scientist could be consulted when it comes to checking the plausibility of a suspected cryptological procedure. In my opinion, one cannot assume that this expert has an answer to many fundamental questions about the VMS. Such a "polymath" contradicts my definition of an expert. As I said, he or she can only provide answers to partial areas. The task of placing an expert's findings in a wider context is left to the questioner. Of course, a discussion can always be helpful to prevent results from being "bent" to fit one's own theory.

• RE: New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

  Mark Knowles > 17-04-2024, 12:04 PM

  (17-04-2024, 10:27 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (17-04-2024, 09:55 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That is certainly true. But denying anyone to be an expert on the Voynich manuscript, because he or she cannot answer reliably any of many most basic questions about the manuscript seems to me appropriate.

  
  For me, an expert is someone who is particularly qualified in certain areas. For example, a computer scientist could be consulted when it comes to checking the plausibility of a suspected cryptological procedure. In my opinion, one cannot assume that this expert has an answer to many fundamental questions about the VMS. Such a "polymath" contradicts my definition of an expert. As I said, he or she can only provide answers to partial areas. The task of placing an expert's findings in a wider context is left to the questioner. Of course, a discussion can always be helpful to prevent results from being "bent" to fit one's own theory.

  
  Yes. That is what I have said about a specialist in a particular area like medieval astrology. These are precisely the kind of people I think we should consult more.

• RE: New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

  bi3mw > 17-04-2024, 12:32 PM

  (17-04-2024, 12:04 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These are precisely the kind of people I think we should consult more.

  
  Yes, but as I wrote in another thread, there is a lack of networking here. The researcher who wants to hear an expert opinion on a particular point often doesn't know who to contact ( at least that's how I feel ). What could be done is to compile a list of experts who are willing to provide support when it comes to the VMS. Some people here will certainly have already made contacts and know from experience who to ask about which topic.
  
  Edit: Of course, you shouldn't overwhelm these experts with requests. That would be counterproductive.

• RE: New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

  Scarecrow > 17-04-2024, 01:02 PM

  For me Ethel Voynich's notebooks are the proof that the MS is genuine.
  It is clear that Wilfrid couldn't have done the MS without Ethel knowing about it. Creating the MS would have been such an enterprise that Wilfrid just couldn't have done in secret from he's wife.
  Because if she knew it was a forgery, and possibly co-author of it, she wouldn't have spent any time on trying identify the MS plants and we wouldn't have her notebooks.
  
  On the contrary, her notebooks show the she dedicated quite a considerable time for the MS (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), ergo she knew the MS was genuine.

• RE: New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

  asteckley > 17-04-2024, 02:37 PM

  (17-04-2024, 01:02 PM)Scarecrow Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For me Ethel Voynich's notebooks are the proof that the MS is genuine.
  It is clear that Wilfrid couldn't have done the MS without Ethel knowing about it. Creating the MS would have been such an enterprise that Wilfrid just couldn't have done in secret from he's wife.
  Because if she knew it was a forgery, and possibly co-author of it, she wouldn't have spent any time on trying identify the MS plants and we wouldn't have her notebooks.
  
  On the contrary, her notebooks show the she dedicated quite a considerable time for the MS (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), ergo she knew the MS was genuine.

  
  That is certainly a piece of evidence against a forgery (or more precisely against a forgery that Wifred knew about) and it's one of the first ones that came to my.mind as well.
  
  But as a weight on the weigh scales, it is a light one.
  
  Did Hilary know about Monica?
  Did Wilfred envy Ethel's fame and success as an author?
  And what was the nature of Ethel's long relationship with Anne?
  
  Definitely evidence. But hardly proof.

• RE: New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

  proto57 > 17-04-2024, 04:03 PM

  (17-04-2024, 01:02 PM)Scarecrow Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For me Ethel Voynich's notebooks are the proof that the MS is genuine.
  It is clear that Wilfrid couldn't have done the MS without Ethel knowing about it. Creating the MS would have been such an enterprise that Wilfrid just couldn't have done in secret from he's wife.
  Because if she knew it was a forgery, and possibly co-author of it, she wouldn't have spent any time on trying identify the MS plants and we wouldn't have her notebooks.
  
  On the contrary, her notebooks show the she dedicated quite a considerable time for the MS (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), ergo she knew the MS was genuine.

  
  Most agree that Ethel did not believe the Voynich was fake. And yes, her notebooks and letters reflect this, in the Beinecke, the Grolier Club, and elsewhere on the internet. I found one of her two plant notebooks in the Grolier Club in NYC, and personally converted it to a PDF file: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. And about her and Anne letters: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Also, I read every scrap found in the archives of the Beinecke over a two (lunchless!) day period.
  
  So yes, I am very familiar with the writings and notebooks of Ethel, Anne, Wilfrid, Garland, and many other associated "players". From that I would say that Ethel and Anne fully believed the manuscript to be genuine. This did not stop them from controlling the message about it, by limiting access to those who might give a favorable verdict. They didn't want people who doubted the Roger Bacon authorship, for one thing. But that is understandable, as the perceived great value of the ms. was tied to it being a Bacon work... if just an "ordinary" herbal, it would be worth like a hundred times less.
  
  But it is also important to note that Ethel's major interest in the manuscript came after Wilfrid died in 1930. It does not seem to be of great interest to her before that. The other thing is that, while she thought it was real, she seemed to question the validity of some of the paths that Wilfrid had taken in asserting certain "facts" about it. For one thing, in her notes under the whole Dee mythology, and related, she wrote strongly, "How do we KNOW this???", and underlined it several times. Well, we know now he didn't "know" that at all, he made it up, and must have known it was a lie: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  But to your other, and more important point: You claim "It is clear that Wilfrid couldn't have done the MS without Ethel knowing about it. Creating the MS would have been such an enterprise that Wilfrid just couldn't have done in secret from he's wife."
  
  Wilfrid had bought, in 1908, the Libreria Franceschini, in Florence, Italy. He not only farmed it for its vast contents of over 500,000 items of all types, to add to his collections and catalog, and even sell blank ancient materials, but also as a kind of "safe house" for Tytus Philippovitch and his wife. Voynich made Tytus the "manager" of the Libreria, ostensibly to house him there. Did he manage it, too? Maybe: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  And also, as I understand, the Libreria, as many Florence businesses, would be shut down for several months each year. No matter, even if it were open, it would have been very easy to create a Voynich forgery there in a couple of months of spare time, maybe a month if worked on full time. The square footage of the shop, in fact, included the basement under it. And Wilfrid seems to have avoid his London and Florence "worlds colliding", as Sowerby related,
  
  "When I first discovered that Mr. Voynich had a branch in Florence, I asked him to allow me to go and work there: I could not think of a more wonderful way of spending one's life than to be describing rare books in Florence. Mr. Voynich refused my request flatly and firmly, and gave me as his chief reason that I should inevitably fall in love with his Manager, and he with me! As I was young and unmarried, I would not see any objection to this, but Mr. Voynich was adamant."
  
  So he has a half a million in piles of mostly uncatalogued "stuff" in Florence, but refuses the request of his best cataloger to spend some time sorting them?
  
  I've not seen any mention of Ethel spending time there, either, nor anyone else. Certainly Wilfrid did, although how much, I do not know. But the point is, I think it is the most likely place the Voynich was created, as he most certainly could have done it there while keeping it a secret from all but less then a handful of people. But even that is assuming that, if a forgery, Wilfrid created it. I think he did, but in whole or part it could have been made by someone else, and anywhere else.
  
  No, I strongly disagree with you that a case can remotely be made that if the Voynich was a forgery, even created by Wilfrid personally, Ethel would have to have known it was being made, or was made.

• RE: New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

  Aga Tentakulus > 17-04-2024, 04:31 PM

  @Rich
  How or what do you even think about the VM text?
  A painstakingly developed system or just nonsense.
  
  There are indications of a system which also suggests the language.
  
  
  Wie oder was denkst Du überhaupt über den VM-Text?
  Mühevoll erarbeitet System oder einfach nur nonsens.
  
  Es gibt Hinweise auf ein System was auch auf die Sprache schliessen lässt.

• RE: New Post: "I Do Listen to the Experts. Do YOU?"

  Mark Knowles > 17-04-2024, 04:46 PM

  (17-04-2024, 12:32 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (17-04-2024, 12:04 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These are precisely the kind of people I think we should consult more.

  What could be done is to compile a list of experts who are willing to provide support when it comes to the VMS.

  That is what I have suggested in my thread entitled "Expert Opinion". With a bit of research one can determine who the specialists are on a particular topic.
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