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Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

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• Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  R. Sale > 07-04-2016, 10:40 PM

  Yes, .....
  .... your point?
  
  I am not suggesting that certain patterns do not repeat themselves - either historically or as derived from nature. That seems to be what you are suggesting, that these patterns may be repeated, and I do not disagree at all. Certainly examples of various scaly patterns are going to be natural.
  
  The nebuly examples you are using, however, are a bit problematic. Of the four examples you cite, two are already known in the VMs and the third is the Tubingen ram. So only the aegis example is new. What it shows is a line where the red intrusions *very poorly* mirror the black patterns. And when seen in context, where the red lines are like the fringes on a dress and the black is simply empty background. It looks less and less like anything having to do with clouds.
  
  The use of nebuly lines in VMs plants shows up in several examples. Has the artist gone overboard? 
  
  The use of traditional lines of division in heraldry predates the Carbon-14 dating of the VMs parchment by more than a century. Therefore it seems reasonable to me to define and interpret examples of these lines as found in the VMs illustrations according to that traditional method. I think that heraldic definitions enhance and clarify the details of these discussions. And that the best way to understand the VMs would be according to the interpretations that were relevant at the time of VMs composition. Heraldry is a relevant, but long ignored part of that understanding.

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Koen G > 08-04-2016, 07:26 AM

  My point is that if you look at the "pangolin" lines from the VM, you'll see that they are much less standard nebuly lines than those in the VM plant. They are absolutely asymmetrical, especially if you focus on the bulbs that point up, i.e. the white ones. They have a definite slant to the left. This seemed to me more like an evocation of this - as JKP rightfully remarks - well known pattern, rather than actual cloud-nebuly lines like those that are found in medieval manuscripts and heraldry.
  
  The fact that the plant margin (accidentally?) looks more like the Tubingen ram line, is an indication that the artist could have drawn such a symmetrical line if he wanted to. Instead, he drew lines with a clear asymmetrical bend to one side. This pattern had a meaning separate from the aegis cloak, so it could have been meant as a reference to that meaning.
  
  
  
  
  

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  VViews > 08-04-2016, 09:20 AM

  Koen Gh,
  
  I have a few questions, regarding this but also several other identifications you make.
  Is your theory that the Voynich was produced in Greece? Or that it is a copy of an ancient Greek manuscript?
  In any case, can you prove that the artefacts you refer to as inspiration for Voynich iconography were known in the 15th C?
  
  My issue with many of the artefacts you offer for visual comparison is that they were rediscovered in the 19th century, such as the Victory of Samothrace for example, which you refer to in your blogpost referenced by MarcoP.
  Although European scribes and intellectuals were certainly familiar with the writings of the ancients, I strongly doubt that they had ever laid eyes on the coins, pottery and imagery you refer to as inspiration, which were rediscovered much more recently.
  If I am wrong, I would really appreciate a link to a scholarly article explaining the presence of ancient Greek artifacts in European monasteries or universities in the 14th-15th century.

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  R. Sale > 08-04-2016, 06:14 PM

  I see there are irregularities in the pattern, but they are relatively minor compared to the Greek example. The Greek example simply has no corresponding bulbs in the red color. Nor is this some painterly slip-up, as there is no reason to suggest that bulbs of some kind were attached to the garment.
  
  This is not the first time that the lines have been given a connotation having to do with fabric, rather than using the definition of nebuly = cloudy. And assuming some portion of VMs investigators is not sufficiently familiar with this detail of heraldic terminology to put the two together, therefore pillow or cushion or folded fabric of some sort would seem a reasonable choice.
  
  I was also wondering how either the Greek or the Tubingen influence might have been transmitted to the VMs artist. Which would be the more likely? I fully agree with VViews questions. And if I read it correctly, there's something of a chronological Gordian knot in the Greek transmission hypothesis.
  
  The heraldry hypothesis is simpler. Well established and quite consistent across much of Europe for more than a century before the VMs parchment dates, heraldry is a sufficient explanation and an adequate source of definitions for some of what the VMs contains. This discussion of nebuly lines is just a small portion of the heraldic influences found in the VMs.
  
  What has been interesting in these discussions is the capability to post the sample patterns. The two patterns posted are not an adequate representation of what the VMs contains. A more complete examination would show the complexity of the nebuly lines in the central rosette, the VMs version of Oresme's cosmos, other examples from Quire 13, etc . It could put the full range of VMs examples on a single page. And that would promote the investigation of VMs Imagery.

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Koen G > 08-04-2016, 06:57 PM

  R. Sale, I moved the Greek question to another thread You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. so we can keep talking about the pattern here.
  
  When I reference Athena's dress, I'm not really talking about the actual fabric. This pattern had a symbolic connotation, just like the later Nebuly Line does. It's an aegis, a protective cloak. It can carry the symbolism of (divine) protection. In her post about this, Diane mentions the possible origin of this tradition in the garments worn by emissaries.
  
  All I want to say is: there are other possible interpretations for a wavy line. This does require the assumption that MS Beinecke 408 was copied from significantly older sources though, but that practice was not uncommon in the middle ages.

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Koen G > 09-04-2016, 10:55 PM

  R. Sale - I'll answer your last post from the Greek thread here since it's completely about this image.
  
  Fitst of all, the aegis idea isn't mine, you can read Diane's original post here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  There's also no need to assume a Byzantine connection for this section. The Byzantium story is more related to my work with the plants.
  
  
  But well, let's assume for now that the line is a nebuly line. In that case, I do understand why the ram picture is an attractive comparison. However, I still find it weird that we would consider to identify this creature as a ram, while it has no curled horns, and while images of rams with such pattern have little to do with the ram posted by Marco. I hope I'm not being too demanding by pointing out those issues. 
  
  Also, genuine question, doesn't the blue paint in the VM drawing represent water? I always thought it looked like a round basin of water over which the animal was suspended...

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  R. Sale > 11-04-2016, 07:40 PM

  As to your last question, I guess it's all subjective. And, now that you suggest the basin interpretation, I can sort of see it. But I've never seen a basin with an edge that frilly. They're usually just round. That should be an archeological oddity.
  
  I'm no authority on art history, but I see no reason to reject a simple solution that would be concurrent with the time and place of VMs creation, and replace it with something that has to come from long ago and far away, by a route that is not well documented. Yes, I know all art has history, but heraldry has a history too. Back to whatever origins the source provides. The heraldry of the VMs Zodiac, the use of other examples of nebuly lines in the Nine Rosettes show the author's familiarity with this pattern.
  
  There is no reason to confuse the nebuly line with the aegis line. Clearly there is nothing in the way of counterbalance in the aegis line like there is in the nebuly line. The whole lower half is missing in the aegis line. There may be a partial similarity on the top (black part) of the line, but look at the details. On the lower right part of the line there is always horizontal extension and a right angle. There is nothing like this in any nebuly line.
  
  Blue paint - blue and white paint - are the primary colors of the nebuly line examples from the Oresme cosmos and the illustrations of Christine de Pizan, etc. Compare them with the VMs central rosette. And also in the upper left rosette.  It's sky and clouds in nearly all instances and cosmic boundaries. I trust you have seen them.
  
  I'm not much worried about the time between parchment preparation and the actual composition of the ms. They may not be as closely stuck together as some would suggest. What bothers me is that the Tubingen ram is the only relevant example, where a creature and some meandering (celestial) lines can be interpreted as an astrological sign. And wouldn't that work as well for any other zodiac house? But where are those examples in the historical record? If something is supposed to be the result that developed from tradition, nothing beats clear evidence of that tradition. Where is it? Much remains unresolved.

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Koen G > 20-04-2016, 03:49 PM

  This is not meant as a serious suggestion - it's way too old, even for me. I just came across it while researching and thought of this thread, "animals" on a "nebuly line" ;hey all picture the serpent Apep/Apophis doing his evil deeds - usually drinking rivers.
  
  
  
  
  
  And this one reminded me of the more "fanciful" gallows (also not serious):
  

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  R. Sale > 20-04-2016, 07:10 PM

  Koen,
  
  Hey, those are really great, especially the second. Structurally they are very good. The physical elements of artistic technique are very similar visually. But obviously the intended interpretations are distinct, different and unrelated.
  
  These Egyptian lines have a much greater balance of top and bottom halves when compared with the proposed 'aegis' line. So if something like this, based on visual similarity alone, were relevant to the VMs 'nebuly' line, then perhaps it should be called an 'apep' line. Like that makes any sense!?
  
  That's the problem with taking interpretations from one culture to another. Sometimes it doesn't work. That's why I have tried looking for interpretations that are consistent with the cultural interpretations of the late medieval period and with a strong emphasis on history and tradition as it would have been known at the time of VMs composition. Heraldry is a valid part of medieval history and tradition. And heraldry is a field of medieval knowledge where tradition has held fairly steady. Heraldry is present in VMs Pisces and Aries, but the patterns may not be known to various investigators. Therefore the topic has not been present in  their investigations.
  
  The Vms author was a person highly competent in the field of heraldry able to understand and create heraldic canting, because s/he put one in the ms. The procession of historical VMs researchers has shown that many have been  unconcerned and potentially oblivious to the very suggestion of heraldry in the VMs, despite the clear representations found illustrated on the zodiac pages.
  
  As a result, the conclusive piece of information, the papelonny pun, sits entirely outside the realms of recognition, if no one is any longer able to identify the pattern and definition of this particular fur and match it with the pair of examples in the VMs Pisces and Aries illustrations. This is an intentional construction, based on the objective placement. It needs to be examined. Heraldry is a valid premise for investigation. The purpose of investigation is to better understand the intent of the illustrations. Heraldry functions as an unexpected language to communicate that intent, which is the historical grounding based on the Fieschi popes and the tradition of the red galero.

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  -JKP- > 20-04-2016, 11:31 PM

  Love the snake pics.
  
  
  Nebuly lines are like halos...
  
  If you see a round orb in someone's hand, it's not a halo, it's probably a royal orb (or sun symbol). If you see the same shape around someone's head in a Christian text, for example, it's a halo (the figure is "nimbed"). The word "nebuly" comes from Latin "nebula" for "cloud" although medieval nebuly aren't regular clouds, they are celestial/spiritual/divinity symbols, a specialized cloud.
  
  In other words, nebuly and halos are recognized by a combination of context and shape. Shape alone isn't enough.
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