• Options
• Login
• Desktop Style

Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

• Index

  • The Voynich Ninja
  • Voynich Research
  • Imagery
  • Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?
• Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Aga Tentakulus > 23-11-2025, 04:06 PM

  @Jorge
  To answer your question, I have taken various criteria into account. That's why it took a little longer.
  First, I would say No. 4. Copying from other images/books.
  In the zodiac, the animals always lift one front leg. This is also found in many other writings.
  Copyists were more widespread than assumed.
  Example: Book of Nature according to Megenberg.
  Note: Wiki. (Not quite the same as in a special treatise, but sufficient.)
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  The Book of Nature has been preserved in 173 textual witnesses. These include manuscripts and printed works in their entirety, in parts, in groups of chapters, in individual chapters or as excerpts. The core of the tradition consists of 80 manuscripts and fragments and 6 incunabula[7]. Of these, 70 manuscripts preserve the Book of Nature in its entirety[8].
  
  That alone about Megenberg
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  When I look at the architecture on Quire 14, I would say he drew it as he saw it.
  
  Looking at the printing centres in the 15th century and the print runs, and the workshops where they still copied by hand before printing, I would say that it is similar, but in different quantities.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Although we have searched and investigated a lot here, many VM drawings have no traceable origin.
  
  Therefore, I would say 50% from books and 50% from his/her own ideas, as he/she needs it.
  
  Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Linda > 23-11-2025, 06:37 PM

  (23-11-2025, 09:45 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you, Linda, for making the images I posted visible. I see we agree that this iconographic element should be considered in relation to similar ones in the same section of the Voynich Manuscript, although we may not agree on the ultimate meaning of it all.
  
    To seek a religious meaning in that image, such as seeing an animal in it, seems to me an unfounded exercise in imagination. In a codex as extensive as the Voynich, there is nothing that suggests a religious interpretation, and besides, when we see an animal in the book, it is well drawn, not that kind of tangled mess that only serves to deceive the eye.
  
     I don't want to repeat myself too much, I just want to emphasize that this iconographic element has a cosmological meaning for me. After all, a good part of the Voynich manuscript has cosmological content.

  
  I do see some cosmological content of course, and not that i see this as being the case as I still could not explain the rest of the page, but as astrological signs and constellations are associated with animals, including some which have been mentioned along the way, bulls, rams, goats, for instance, it could be possible to join this with the nebuly line to denote the heavens, and whatever cosmological or other implications that might be found in that association. Are you saying you can't see the resemblance to an animal at all?

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Jorge_Stolfi > 23-11-2025, 07:47 PM

  (23-11-2025, 04:06 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.First, I would say No. 4. Copying from other images/books.

  
  Thanks..  I think overall that is indeed the case for a majority of the drawings, and for the meaningful parts. 
  
  But there must have been also a lot of painting form memory -- not of what the scribe saw directly, but memory of what he saw on other drawings, and of things he drew before.  This must have been the case for most stereotypical decoration, like floral patterns, wolkenbands, common animals, generic houses and church towers, dresses, dragons, etc.  And the nymphs of the VMS.  The scribe learned to draw the thing once, somehow, and then kept replicating that drawing from memory.
  
  And there must have been also some amount of things that the scribe mostly made up on the spot.  Like trees with square leaves, strange monsters, fancy hairdos and hats, decorations on dresses, ... If for no other reason, just as a bit of relief from a boring job...
  
  

  Quote:When I look at the architecture on Quire 14, I would say he drew it as he saw it.

  
  That drawing (or some parts thereof) may depict specific castles, bridges, and islands, yes.  But even so the scribe surely did not take vellum, quill, and ink outdoors to draw those things by looking at them.  He or someone else made sketches and floorplans of those items, and the scribe copied from those.
  
  All the best --stolfi

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Linda > 23-11-2025, 09:03 PM

  (23-11-2025, 07:35 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just look at the animals.
  f116 the sheep/goat, Sterneichen bull and ram. Then there's the lion. And the animals by the water  f79v.
  The artist knew which animals have paws and which have hooves or claws. Even in the smallest drawing, f116, it can be seen clearly.
  Whose feet are those on the cushion? Certainly not a sheep's.

  
  I agree, i think that is a hint. That is why i choose to call it an ibex, not so much because it looks like one, but if you conflate it with the historical iconography of it, along with that of the mountains that are associated with it, they would not be feet, but foothills, at the foot of the mountains of the Alps.
  
  The funny little two toed one that you can see near what would be the belly, could be used to denote a special type of foothill, called the Ivrean Morain Ampitheatre. Basically it is glacial sediment. It is quite a noticeable feature, the largest, in fact, of its type in the area. Sometimes it fills with fog.
  
    
  
  
  
  Even before the birth of modern geology, some legends widespread in the Canavese area told of the existence in the AMI area of a vast lake (the existence of which is denied by geologists)[note 2] which Ypa, the mythical queen-priestess who led the Salassi people, is said to have reclaimed by having a tunnel dug near Mazzè so as to discharge its waters outside the circle of hills that acted as an embankment to the south.[10] Traces of this legend may also be found in the chronicle De bello canepiciano, compiled by Pietro Azario in the 14th century, in which the ancient presence of a large lake in the area is reported as certain news.[11] 
  
  This shows people knew about the area at the time and long before, it was a Roman settlement in the past as well (they subjugated the Salassi).
  
  As an extension, it is surpassed in Italy only by the similar formation surrounding Lake Garda.[2] 
  
  Guess where the front foot is. 
  
  
  
  The back foot doesn't appear to represent a moraine ampitheatre per se, more because it is the Maritime Alps which extend into the sea, but i would use it as a reminder to draw a bump in the shoreline where the Alps terminate, from about Monaco halfway to Genoa. You can see in this relief map that in that way all the feet are analogous to areas in the green section, extending in some places to the yellow, not much higher than the valley floor itself. Foothills.
  
  

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  R. Sale > 23-11-2025, 09:08 PM

  Anyone who cannot see potential religious influences in the VMs is not paying sufficient attention to the subtleties of the illustrations. You can see what you want in the VMs critter, but it's still a *three-part* puzzle. It's Click > click > click => Ca-ching.  If there's a clunk, there's no ca-ching.
  
  The structure of the three-part VMs illustration matches that of BNF Fr. 13096. The Apocalypse of S Jean
  This book was owned by the Valois Dukes of Burgundy, though it may have been loaned out. Books have a life of their own.
  Other comparable texts are also apocalyptic. Astrology is somewhat relevant for parts 1 & 2. But it fails on part three, which is the droplets of blood. Blood is uncommon in Agnus Dei representations and when shown in alternate examples, it does not cross the cosmic band barrier. So, the third part not only needs to be correctly identified but correctly positioned as well.
  
  And the Powerball is:::: The marriage to Ecclesia. If you get something right, then other things have a better chance to make sense.
  
  The problem is compounded. The artistry is second rate. The artist was intentionally deceptive. The investigator may be unfamiliar with the reference that was made by the VMs artist. Once that gets straightened out; it's obvious. See above.

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Bluetoes101 > 23-11-2025, 10:38 PM

  (21-11-2025, 09:07 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you think the association of the golden fleece with a rain event is relevant? The images you link do have a lot of clouds with lines under them (although the fleece is on the wrong side...)

  
  I'm guessing some imagery might have got mixed up. Maybe some people just did "a fleece"?..  but I thought this example was also a good one of the wavy lines and rain/water 
  
     
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  12r: Gideon's fleece
  
  "Gideon and the fleece is a biblical story from the Book of Judges where a man named Gideon, who was leading the Israelites against the Midianites,
  asks God for two signs to confirm he should fight the upcoming battle. He places a fleece of wool outside and asks God to make the fleece wet with dew while the ground stays dry,
  and God does so. He then asks God to reverse it, making the ground wet and the fleece dry, which God also does, ultimately convincing Gideon to follow God's command."
  
  Title: Speculum humanae salvationis
  Origin Place: Northern Netherlands, perhaps Utrecht.
  Date of Creation: Mid-/third quarter of the 15th century (Binski and Zutshi) or second half of the 15th century (Ringrose).
  Language(s): Latin

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Koen G > 24-11-2025, 10:36 AM

  An essential webpage for the Speculum is the Warburg iconographic database. Here's their summary of the Speculum's chapters: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  We're interested in Gideon, so I control-f "Gideon", and it appears his story prefigured the Annunciation:
  
  

  Quote:ll. 65–86: Mary was chosen as Gideon was chosen to deliver Israel through the fleece moistened by heavenly dew. The fleece prefigures the human nature put on by Christ: as the dew did not damage the wool so Mary preserved her virginity.

  
  When the Medieval European read about Gideon, all they were thinking was "cool story, but how can I link this to Jesus?" Hence, the medieval mind was constantly trained to insert Jesus into things that are not about him. It's constant theological gymnastics that are hard to follow for the uninitiated.
  
  Slightly unrelated: the granddaddy of all prefiguration (or Typologies, as they are called) is Jonah and the fish as Resurrection from the dead. Matthew has Jesus himself showing how the OT can be used to apply to him. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
  
  

  Quote:38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees told Jesus,[a] “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”
  
  39 But he replied to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves a sign. Yet no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah, 40 because just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea creature for three days and three nights,[b] so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

  
  
  Jonah stepping out of the fish is our best visual parallel for the fish nymph on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , which also has the cross nymph on top. Resurrection from the grave happens at the bottom (literally from the ground), while the triumph of Ecclesia occurs at a loftier level.
  
  The problem, as usual with Q13, is that nothing is quite right. If the thing is meaningful at all (which I suspect it is given the various thematic threads), we haven't figured out yet how.

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Bluetoes101 > 24-11-2025, 11:58 AM

  (24-11-2025, 10:36 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The problem, as usual with Q13, is that nothing is quite right. If the thing is meaningful at all (which I suspect it is given the various thematic threads), we haven't figured out yet how.

  
  Going a tad off topic, but yesterday I was looking at a lot of revelation stuff and snipped a lot of images. I should have some more on the topic of the animal soonish, but I saw this image and immediately thought I wonder if the image it reminds me of in the VM has 7 "windows", or whatever we are calling them. Turns out it is 7. There's a few more 7s too, but might just be a nice amount of things..  
  
     
  
  Bonus pic
  
     

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Koen G > 24-11-2025, 01:01 PM

  Very nice. Though from experience, I'd warn against relying too much on counting things, unless the number is really essential. For that particular Voynich page, we must also keep in mind that closer parallels are found in Balneis imagery. We are very likely dealing with medicine/bathing at the surface level, whatever any symbolic meaning may be.
  
  That's a good Jonah. One of his main options is this "praying" pose, which is also found in scenes of the Last Judgement You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Basically it's a piety marker, so bodies of pious people are raised from the dead at the Last Judgement. Just like Jonah was a pious man who was raised out of his watery "grave". A similar pose is used for the youth on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. top right, though the dots and lines make it weird.

• RE: Dragons, Dogs & Amadillos?

  Bluetoes101 > 24-11-2025, 01:48 PM

  The 7 thing interested me because revelation is basically "7" for imagery 
  7 seals, 7 angels with the 7 plagues in 7 bowls, the beast with 7 heads and 7 crowns, the lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes...  
  
  The VM could just be random chance, but the tub in the other is definitely 7 on purpose, you couldn't escape 7 if you wanted to in these manuscripts
  
  I do remember seeing this in one for the praying pose and thinking its hard to not see the similarity 
     
• Next Oldest Next Newest