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Archive Proximity
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RE: Archive Proximity
Mark Knowles > 28-03-2026, 06:47 PM
(28-03-2026, 06:35 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 05:47 PM)hatoncat Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 01:30 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you are wondering how to recognise what is a cipher and what is not then I have a very large archive of ciphers on my OneDrive that you can consult.
My best discovery is the 1424 Milanese enciphered letters which were intercepted by the Republic of Florence and can be found in the Archivio di Stato di Firenze. Although, I was also pleased to see the 1397 intercepted Milanese enciphered letter in the Chronicles of Lucca by Giovanni Sercambi. Finding out about the Albertoni cipher ledger in the Cremona State Library with ciphers dating from 1444 was interesting as was the 1421 enciphered letter of Archbishop of Genoa, Pileo de Marini and the Milanese enciphered letters in the Library of Paris amongst other finds.
More information to follow...
A couple years ago, I read about a historian, Ioanna Iordanou, who did research on the Venetian Secret Service: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quite interesting: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I'm trying to get hold of this but can't seem to buy the pdf
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Look at what it covers... But it confirms only 2 ciphers survive.. the 1411 Steno and a later Cifra Costantinopoli from 1484
There are possibly other examples of Venetian ciphers that survive. In the Cipher Ledger of Paolo Guinigi, Lord of Lucca, which is in the Lucca State Archives, there is a cipher key which was used in communication with Venetian Republic envoys which I suspect may have been designed by the Venetian envoys. I also recall a cipher key in the Tranchedino Cipher Ledger which I suspect may have been Venetian in origin. If you want more information on these you can ask. -
RE: Archive Proximity
DG97EEB > 28-03-2026, 07:39 PM
(28-03-2026, 06:47 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 06:35 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 05:47 PM)hatoncat Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 01:30 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you are wondering how to recognise what is a cipher and what is not then I have a very large archive of ciphers on my OneDrive that you can consult.
My best discovery is the 1424 Milanese enciphered letters which were intercepted by the Republic of Florence and can be found in the Archivio di Stato di Firenze. Although, I was also pleased to see the 1397 intercepted Milanese enciphered letter in the Chronicles of Lucca by Giovanni Sercambi. Finding out about the Albertoni cipher ledger in the Cremona State Library with ciphers dating from 1444 was interesting as was the 1421 enciphered letter of Archbishop of Genoa, Pileo de Marini and the Milanese enciphered letters in the Library of Paris amongst other finds.
More information to follow...
A couple years ago, I read about a historian, Ioanna Iordanou, who did research on the Venetian Secret Service: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quite interesting: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I'm trying to get hold of this but can't seem to buy the pdf
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Look at what it covers... But it confirms only 2 ciphers survive.. the 1411 Steno and a later Cifra Costantinopoli from 1484
There are possibly other examples of Venetian ciphers that survive. In the Cipher Ledger of Paolo Guinigi, Lord of Lucca, which is in the Lucca State Archives, there is a cipher key which was used in communication with Venetian Republic envoys which I suspect may have been designed by the Venetian envoys. I also recall a cipher key in the Tranchedino Cipher Ledger which I suspect may have been Venetian in origin. If you want more information on these you can ask.
Thank you Mark. I have been mining your archive and not yet seen it, so any pointers greatly appreciated. -
RE: Archive Proximity
Mark Knowles > 28-03-2026, 09:02 PM
(28-03-2026, 07:39 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 06:47 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are possibly other examples of Venetian ciphers that survive. In the Cipher Ledger of Paolo Guinigi, Lord of Lucca, which is in the Lucca State Archives, there is a cipher key which was used in communication with Venetian Republic envoys which I suspect may have been designed by the Venetian envoys. I also recall a cipher key in the Tranchedino Cipher Ledger which I suspect may have been Venetian in origin. If you want more information on these you can ask.
Thank you Mark. I have been mining your archive and not yet seen it, so any pointers greatly appreciated.
There is a cipher key for Marino Caravello, Zaccaria Trevisano and Bernardo de Dandolo who were representatives of the Republic of Venice. If my memory serves me correctly it dates from 1408. It was used in negotiations between the Pope and Antipope.
It can also be found in Meister's book "Die Anfänge der modernen diplomatischen Geheimschrift". -
RE: Archive Proximity
DG97EEB > 28-03-2026, 09:10 PM
(28-03-2026, 09:02 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 07:39 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 06:47 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are possibly other examples of Venetian ciphers that survive. In the Cipher Ledger of Paolo Guinigi, Lord of Lucca, which is in the Lucca State Archives, there is a cipher key which was used in communication with Venetian Republic envoys which I suspect may have been designed by the Venetian envoys. I also recall a cipher key in the Tranchedino Cipher Ledger which I suspect may have been Venetian in origin. If you want more information on these you can ask.
Thank you Mark. I have been mining your archive and not yet seen it, so any pointers greatly appreciated.
There is a cipher key for Marino Caravello, Zaccaria Trevisano and Bernardo de Dandolo who were representatives of the Republic of Venice. If my memory serves me correctly it dates from 1408. It was used in negotiations between the Pope and Antipope.
It can also be found in Meister's book "Die Anfänge der modernen diplomatischen Geheimschrift".
Hi Mark,
Can you remember which folio it is? I've processed the first 2/3rds and I may have missed it. -
RE: Archive Proximity
Mark Knowles > 28-03-2026, 09:12 PM
(28-03-2026, 09:10 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 09:02 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 07:39 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-03-2026, 06:47 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are possibly other examples of Venetian ciphers that survive. In the Cipher Ledger of Paolo Guinigi, Lord of Lucca, which is in the Lucca State Archives, there is a cipher key which was used in communication with Venetian Republic envoys which I suspect may have been designed by the Venetian envoys. I also recall a cipher key in the Tranchedino Cipher Ledger which I suspect may have been Venetian in origin. If you want more information on these you can ask.
Thank you Mark. I have been mining your archive and not yet seen it, so any pointers greatly appreciated.
There is a cipher key for Marino Caravello, Zaccaria Trevisano and Bernardo de Dandolo who were representatives of the Republic of Venice. If my memory serves me correctly it dates from 1408. It was used in negotiations between the Pope and Antipope.
It can also be found in Meister's book "Die Anfänge der modernen diplomatischen Geheimschrift".
Hi Mark,
Can you remember which folio it is? I've processed the first 2/3rds and I may have missed it.
Just uploaded it above in my previous comment. The only thing that is unusual are the substitutions for numbers(And the substitution for Anticardinals). One doesn't see that in most cipher keys.
I remember the possible Venetian cipher in the Tranchedino was unusual only in that it contained an unusually large of homophones for individual letters of the alphabet. But it dated from the 1460s if my memory serves me well. -
RE: Archive Proximity
Mark Knowles > 28-03-2026, 10:02 PM
(26-03-2026, 01:47 PM)Yavernoxia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I live in Italy, more precisely in Padua. I travel a lot around the country, so if you have any specific requests involving an archive near a major city, I can probably help
Padua could have interesting material in its archives, so there may be material there. I guess it is unlikely that you will be visiting Pavia as it is quite a small city. Also if you visit Rome visiting the Vatican Archives might be a major endeavour. Getting permission to research in the Vatican archives does not appear to be as difficult as some might imagine however it might require quite a bit of time; it is hard for me to say as I have never researched there myself.
When it comes to ciphers surviving from the early 15th century there is a mixed picture where surprisingly more material survives from some of the smaller states.
From Lucca: Cipher Ledger of Paolo Guinigi
From Mantova: Cipher Ledger of Francesco Gonzaga + Some enciphered letters
From Modena: A number of enciphered letters
From Florence: Quite a number of enciphered letters and the collection "Crittografia Fiorentini" of cipher keys generated from enciphered letters by the 19th archivist Abbot Pietro Gabrielli.
From Venice: Very little.
From Milan: Not so much. (But a lot from the later half of the 15th century)
From the Papacy: Unknown as I don't know what Vatican archives may hold. It is worth noting however that the Papacy moved around quite a bit at this time, so there may be Papal ciphers in other archives like Bologna.(In fact I know of at least one in the Bologna archives)
There could be a number of archives worth searching. For example, I know of the Guinigi cipher ledger in Lucca, but there may also be enciphered letters too. Searching around in the Mantova, Modena and especially the Florence Archive may help locate some more enciphered letters.(I know a few researchers looking in the Florence archives for ciphers, so there may not be more to find. However, the Florence archive is on my list of places I would be interested in searching if I had the time as I may find something unexpected.) There is unlikely to be anything of interest in the archives in Southern Italy or Sardinia, although anything is possible if Sforza ciphers can find their way to St.Peterburg. The reason for the interest in ciphers from the Italian city states is that in the early 15th century they were far more advanced than one tends to find in other European states at that time with the possible exception of the Kingdom of Aragon which was heavily involved in Italian politics and for which early 15th century ciphers survive.
Meister's "Die Anfänge der modernen diplomatischen Geheimschrift" gives an overview of what he found in archives in Pisa, Siena and some other cities. However, from my experience it is very possible that he missed some ciphers in his research as I have found quite a few ciphers that he missed in archives. -
RE: Archive Proximity
Yavernoxia > 28-03-2026, 11:19 PM
Pavia is a 3 hour drive from me, so yeah not really nearby, but it’s only a 45 minutes drive from Milan (which I do visit often, at least twice a year). Do you have anything specific you’d like to search in Padua? Which archives are worth looking into in your opinion? -
RE: Archive Proximity
Mark Knowles > 30-03-2026, 12:56 PM
(28-03-2026, 11:19 PM)Yavernoxia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pavia is a 3 hour drive from me, so yeah not really nearby, but it’s only a 45 minutes drive from Milan (which I do visit often, at least twice a year). Do you have anything specific you’d like to search in Padua? Which archives are worth looking into in your opinion?
Hello
I have sent you a link by email/private message to my cipher archive.
I try to avoid publishing this link in public forums, although I have shared this with a number of interested researchers.
This should give a clear idea of what early 15th century enciphered letters, cipher keys, cipher ledgers and enciphered manuscripts looked like. This will help you easily identify ciphers when searching in archives.
If you have any questions please ask.
I will post other messages to you here in the "Archival Proximity" thread.
Best Wishes,
Mark Knowles -
RE: Archive Proximity
Mark Knowles > 30-03-2026, 02:10 PM
(28-03-2026, 11:19 PM)Yavernoxia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pavia is a 3 hour drive from me, so yeah not really nearby, but it’s only a 45 minutes drive from Milan (which I do visit often, at least twice a year). Do you have anything specific you’d like to search in Padua? Which archives are worth looking into in your opinion?
If you haven't seen them you might find the following documents that I have written about early 15th century cryptography interesting->
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RE: Archive Proximity
Mark Knowles > 30-03-2026, 02:17 PM
(28-03-2026, 11:19 PM)Yavernoxia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pavia is a 3 hour drive from me, so yeah not really nearby, but it’s only a 45 minutes drive from Milan (which I do visit often, at least twice a year). Do you have anything specific you’d like to search in Padua? Which archives are worth looking into in your opinion?
As a start to thinking about archival research you might want to have a look at the following link to the inventories of the Archivio di Stato di Padova->
Inventari della Sala di Studio - Archivio di Stato di Padova You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
So, for example, you can download the 1st Inventary here->
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(For some reason the archive websites tend to be unavailable in the late evening or night Italian time.)
Archives generally provide an idea of the dates that certain collections of documents cover such as "1420-1441". I am only generally interested in late 14th century or 15th century documents as I doubt the likelihood that documents that are much earlier or much later could have any relevance to the Voynich manuscript.
As most ciphers were used in diplomatic communication diplomatic documents in particular diplomatic letters are more likely to contain ciphers. So, I tend to look for references to "Lettere Ducali", "Cancelleria", "Diplomatico", "Ambasciatori" for possible places to look for ciphers.