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The Voynich Manuscript: A Non-Stochastic Glossolalia

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  • [Article] The Voynich Manuscript: A Non-Stochastic Glossolalia
• The Voynich Manuscript: A Non-Stochastic Glossolalia

• RE: The Voynich Manuscript: A Non-Stochastic Glossolalia

  MichelleL11 > 04-06-2024, 12:20 AM

  (03-06-2024, 07:53 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (03-06-2024, 07:01 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The author has not provided any means to contact him in this publication.  This is always a red flag.

  If it really is Joseph Fasano from Manhattan University, we can find his email on the university website, however the choice to publish on Semantics Archive and Academia edu remains inexplicable to me.

  
  Hi, Ruby:
  
  I’m pretty sure this is a real person who is a poet and a professor in the English departments of Manhattanville U. and Columbia (maybe?).  But the real issue with not providing contact information is reflective of the reasons for publication - is this just a resume padder?  Are they unwilling to interact with others on these ideas?  In my opinion, there are too many “lone wolf” theorists in Voynich studies already and the addition of a further one that could really up their believability by working with other experts, but doesn’t seem to realize it at least at this point, is discouraging. Maybe this will change.

• RE: The Voynich Manuscript: A Non-Stochastic Glossolalia

  nablator > 04-06-2024, 10:39 AM

  (03-06-2024, 07:01 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.4.  There is no mention of peer-reviewed Voynich publications that could be a problem for this theory (e.g. Lisa Fagin Davis' work on scribes comes to mind first).

  
  The apparent variety of scribes is not really a problem: the transcription could have been done by anyone, and later it was re-written to the VMs by the same or different people.
  
  

  (03-06-2024, 09:10 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe LAAFU effects? I do not expect an outpouring of glossolalia (which is like a religious experience) to take lines into account at all.

  
  Yes, all line properties are proof that Voynichese is not simply a transcription of speech.
  
  I was thinking of something more difficult to achieve on the fly without a written record and some kind of procedure (like marking long sequences of reused vords somehow) or algorithm to limit the number of re-occurrences of any sequence of 3 vords to just zero or one in Currier A.
  
  I am not sure that this property is 100% true because of the many mistakes and ambiguities in transliterations. There are 27 re-occurring sequence of 3 vords in paragraphs of Currier A pages of the ZL transliteration, including sequences of vords than span two lines.
  
  The probability of this happening by chance, with the known affinities of some patterns across vord breaks, and the known line properties making re-occurrences more likely than in a uniformly random draw of vords, is difficult to evaluate: it could have happened non-intentionally.

• RE: The Voynich Manuscript: A Non-Stochastic Glossolalia

  pfeaster > 04-06-2024, 06:03 PM

  (03-06-2024, 09:10 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (03-06-2024, 08:29 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A solid refutation of glossolalia would be a property of Voynichese that is incompatible with a stream of words that can be generated quickly, at the speed of speech.

  
  Maybe LAAFU effects? I do not expect an outpouring of glossolalia (which is like a religious experience) to take lines into account at all.

  
  Well, I can think of one "property of Voynichese that is incompatible with a stream of words that can be generated quickly, at the speed of speech" -- namely, Voynichese (in the written form we have, and sharing the author's assumptions about the mapping of characters to speech sounds) can't physically be written quickly enough.  The characters take too long to form with the pen.  Any system for transcribing fluent glossolalia by hand would need to look more like shorthand from the nineteenth century or later -- but even then, any shorthand systems that have historically let people transcribe speech at an ordinary rate of delivery have relied on methods of abbreviation that aren't suited to transcribing arbitrary spoken sounds.  I don't believe any known system of writing, past or present, could be used to record extemporaneous rapid glossolalia at all accurately by hand, unless the transcriber had previously invented a system of abbreviation customized to fit the patterns of a specific glossolalist.  My understanding is that the formal study of glossolalia was severely hampered for this reason until the introduction of the Edison phonograph (see remarks You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., for example).
  
  That's not to say that someone couldn't have had a glossolalist speak in discrete chunks and transcribed each chunk in turn.  If this were done line by line, and if each "session" corresponded with the start of a new paragraph, it might even have resulted in line and paragraph patterns.
  
  But that would make for a very different kind of argument, and it would also make any statistical patterns derived from modern recordings of fluent, continuous glossolalia less suitable as points of comparison.

• RE: The Voynich Manuscript: A Non-Stochastic Glossolalia

  nablator > 04-06-2024, 06:18 PM

  (04-06-2024, 06:03 PM)pfeaster Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't believe any known system of writing, past or present, could be used to record extemporaneous rapid glossolalia at all accurately by hand, unless the transcriber had previously invented a system of abbreviation customized to fit the patterns of a specific glossolalist.  My understanding is that the formal study of glossolalia was severely hampered for this reason until the introduction of the Edison phonograph (see remarks You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., for example).

  
  Does slow glossolalia exist? Or repeated glossolalia? I don't know but it seems unlikely.
  
  Edward Kelley was slow enough to dictate liber Loagaeth to John Dee, does it count?

• RE: The Voynich Manuscript: A Non-Stochastic Glossolalia

  Koen G > 04-06-2024, 08:38 PM

  One thing I wonder is if it matters what exactly causes low entropy. It is more than just repetition; in Voynichese, we also get unusual positional rigidity. In glossolalia, how to explain the limited positions of glyphs like EVA [y, q, a, i]... well, the whole system of Voynichese really.
  
  The positional rigidity as we see it in Voynichese cannot be explained in the context of glossolalia. When one is "speaking in tongues", this will always be based on languages one is familiar with. The speaker will make new words (perhaps simpler, more repetitive words?) using familiar phonotactic constraints.
  
  As much as I love entropy as a statistic, I suspect it may be too broad for this discussion. The low entropy of Voynichese feels more "mathematical" rather than the "naive" low entropy that may exist in some glossolalic utterances.
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